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  1. #2021
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    That’s a silly question. The point here is to establish a viable top national category and support it as the main national class. That’s what has been done with R5 cars and thanks to it most European national series have now balanced and competitive top fields. It’s not hard to understand that balance will be at risk with the introduction of hugely expensive WRC cars.
    Well you were the one to bring up the F1/F3 comparison. Rallying has always had different classes of cars within the same overall competition, circuit racing more rarely so.

    I repeat myself: I don't mean WRC cars should be allowed to score points. They would work merely as an attraction for spectators. In most cases the absence of the WRC car wouldn't mean the same driver would do the event in an R5 car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post

    Also Your example with WRC2 is wrong (or it actually proves that Tommeke was right). The number of people following WRC2 is way lower than of those following overall standings (hell, even common media don't bother with WRC2 - even in Czech Republic where one would expect them to write something about Škoda or Kopecký's successes You usually get an information that Ogier won and Kopecký was 15th without bothering with any further details).
    Well of course WRC2 is not as interesting as main WRC, it can't be compared to a national event with a guest WRC driver ahead of the actually competing R5's.
    Last edited by AnttiL; 16th May 2019 at 15:36.

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  3. #2022
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarmop View Post

    Belgium should not be considered as an example (now), because i believe that they drive without taking part in the points scoring.
    No, the Ypres example is different because they have a parallel event for WRC cars. In other countries WRC cars are in the same overall standings but not eligible for points.

  4. #2023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarmop View Post
    , there are too many championships still with 2-5 R5s per event...and others have no chanche against them. Is it unfair? Well, in a way... some local 4wd nationals have died because of R5, many are fading away, with spectators...only to be occasionally boosted by big names and/or WRC cars, also among the drivers btw.
    So you are saying that 2-5 R5s kill local championships.
    Then let's introduce 1-2 WRCs into the same championship, that will help!

    Or similarly introduce 2-3 WRCs into championships that currently have 10-15 R5s om each rally. That will have exactly same effect that you just described.

    As Mirek says R5 is clearly the most sucesfull class there has been in very long time. Don't change something that is not broken. Especially with something that has been tried before and didn't work (WRCs in 2005-2010, before getting banned almost everywhere).

  5. #2024
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    let's introduce 1-2 WRCs into the same championship, that will help!

    Or similarly introduce 2-3 WRCs into championships that currently have 10-15 R5s om each rally.
    No one is suggesting this. We're talking about one-off guest drives with no points eligibility. But again I'm just repeating myself, like talking to a wall.

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  7. #2025
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    You are talking about zero eligibility, others aren't.

    Zero eligibility is ok with regards to how the national championship is affected.
    But still there is the issue with factory teams using their main drivers on multiple rallies to avoid testing restrictions. Hyundai now has 4 rallies planned.

  8. #2026
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    So you are saying that 2-5 R5s kill local championships.
    Then let's introduce 1-2 WRCs into the same championship, that will help!

    Or similarly introduce 2-3 WRCs into championships that currently have 10-15 R5s om each rally. That will have exactly same effect that you just described.

    As Mirek says R5 is clearly the most sucesfull class there has been in very long time. Don't change something that is not broken. Especially with something that has been tried before and didn't work (WRCs in 2005-2010, before getting banned almost everywhere).
    In terms of spectators, and event sponsorship, yes. AND i am talking about non-scoring WRCs from the beginning in post nr. 1971, with the only exception that not only in the hands of WRC teams and drivers, but also privateers. Though that is also correct, that "village" events are "village" events and there is never equality in rallying or sports in general (Dr. Schmidt is a perfect example at the moment, sports in general).
    Last edited by Tarmop; 16th May 2019 at 16:51.

  9. #2027
    Senior Member Allez Andruet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    But still there is the issue with factory teams using their main drivers on multiple rallies to avoid testing restrictions. Hyundai now has 4 rallies planned.
    Thank god they have. What I find astonishing, is that now that we finally have the brutally beautiful WRC machinery that the sport craved for years (better second coming of Group B than anyone had ever hoped for), someone still thinks it would be better to keep those cars in the garage rather than let them terrorize the special stages for the pleasure of rally fans. I just don't get the logic.
    ku ois neljä pyörää ku vetäis ni ois vähän eri sekunnit kyllä pätkillä, sen mä takaan

  10. Likes: AnttiL (16th May 2019),er88 (16th May 2019),EstWRC (16th May 2019),Fast Eddie WRC (16th May 2019),GravelBen (16th May 2019),pantealex (22nd May 2019),the sniper (16th May 2019)
  11. #2028
    Senior Member er88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal the 2nd View Post
    I worry for the future of the GB rally if this proposal is to go ahead. As has already been said the event has received a lot of money from the Welsh authorities as they have seen this as a flagship event to bring in tourist spend. Northern Ireland maybe a go-er as I know Bobby Willis was looking as getting the COI back in the ERC and that is basically a NI based rally. Elsewhere I'm not so sure. There was plenty of money around in Yorkshire a few years back and a ERC counter based in the county was on the blocks but fell through ironically the same promoter was involved in that deal! The money then went cycling's way and we had Le Grand Depart and now the Tour De Yorkshire however the local tourism body is in a state of flux as its Chief Exec had to leave recently under a cloud. Also there are very few of the traditional forests that the old RAC Rally used to use left for access as there is far more recreational use now and there are only a couple of allocations each year. Maybe a tie-up with the North East to use Keilder etc may work? Scotland had a bit of a failed attempt back in the IRC days but that event only got a few entries so not so sure the appetite for another try will be there.

    We do need the event to get more National press coverage etc however so feel a move will be a good thing its just needs a big headline sponsor as too many salaries in the promotion/organisational team to pay otherwise.
    The original plan of IMS was for Scotland (with the perthshire/trossachs stages) to take over from Wales in 2015, which was struggling badly at the time Scotland got the initial IRC contract.

    But IMS fucked that event so badly despite the quality stages, by not getting the British rally championship on board or even the Scottish rally championship. So the event lacked entries basically every year and couldn't gain the momentum it deserved. It was fucked before it even began.

    Wales also took on a new lease of life with the move to the north of the country and has grown a lot again with the new cars being introduced, and an exciting new championship. But I still feel Rally GB needs a new lease of life.

    However without major sponsors it's simply not feasible. Visit Scotland put a lot of money into the IRC rally but it still wasn't enough without another major sponsor and more interest. If there is potential for something to happen in NI or Scotland it would be nice if IMS didn't tie events arms behind their back from the get go, unless they want more failure. I already fear for Wales this year with the service park being moved from Deeside which has easy access from huge population centres like Liverpool, Manchester etc. Instead it'll be crammed into a small seaside town on the north east tip of Wales. Smells of potential chaos but I hope I'm wrong.

    I think Rally GB does need a change up and re located but I don't trust IMS to manage it properly at all - even if they did get a major sponsor on board. Once the event falls off the WRC calendar it won't come back for a long, long time - despite any promises or PR bullshit the organisers come out with. It's so important it remains for the rallying scene in the UK.

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  13. #2029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal the 2nd View Post
    I worry for the future of the GB rally if this proposal is to go ahead. As has already been said the event has received a lot of money from the Welsh authorities as they have seen this as a flagship event to bring in tourist spend. Northern Ireland maybe a go-er as I know Bobby Willis was looking as getting the COI back in the ERC and that is basically a NI based rally. Elsewhere I'm not so sure. There was plenty of money around in Yorkshire a few years back and a ERC counter based in the county was on the blocks but fell through ironically the same promoter was involved in that deal! The money then went cycling's way and we had Le Grand Depart and now the Tour De Yorkshire however the local tourism body is in a state of flux as its Chief Exec had to leave recently under a cloud. Also there are very few of the traditional forests that the old RAC Rally used to use left for access as there is far more recreational use now and there are only a couple of allocations each year. Maybe a tie-up with the North East to use Keilder etc may work? Scotland had a bit of a failed attempt back in the IRC days but that event only got a few entries so not so sure the appetite for another try will be there.
    I'm curious to see if the MN version of this story adds a bit more meat to the bones, as I'm not sure what Oliver Ciesla actually wants in reality. He says "There's a huge fan base and lots of tradition. But we are running this event, not in the heart of the country where the fans are." Where does he consider the heart of the country, where the fans are...? If we're talking about Britain, I'd say you are in the heartland of rallying in this country, and arguably is as close to "where the fans are" as you can reasonably get with a proper forest rally. The north/mid Wales location is probably the best compromise for being central within the UK, allowing fans to travel from across the UK & Ireland. Once you move the rally to Scotland or Northern England (presumably the intent would be for a Newcastle/Gateshead HQ), you're really moving the rally away from "where the fans are", or at least away from where the bulk of the UK population are.

    Then you have the move to Northern Ireland, which will serve the island of Ireland brilliantly I'm sure, but won't really serve the British fan base at all beyond those of us hardcore fans who will make the trip over. But then any rally in Europe serves us to a similar extent. That article seems to give the impression that it'd still be 'Rally GB' in Northern Ireland rather than the Circuit of Ireland? That'd be a very poor decision, but I can imagine Motorsport UK wanting to keep their hand in the event. For a start, maybe some abroad aren't familiar with this, but Northern Ireland isn't actually a part of Great Britain, but is part of the UK. I would personally prefer for the rally there to be a CoI rather than a completely out of character 'Rally GB'.

    Personally I like the concept of one year in Wales, one year in Scotland, one year in Newcastle (for Kielder/Yorkshire), then a year off for CoI, before three more years of rotating Rally GB. Obviously as has been said though the funding model is the issue. The article quotes Iain Campbell as saying MSUK have been working with the "Welsh Assembly, the WRC Promoter and the devolved governments of Northern Ireland and Scotland" which makes sense. Rally of Scotland received £250,000 in 2011 from the Scottish Government (plus £50k from Stirling and Kinross Councils) and the CoI received "significant funding" from 2014 to 2016 from the NI Government, so the precedent is there, and with a WRC round being a much better sell, I can imagine them being able to provide more money for a bigger WRC event. Funding a Newcastle/Kielder/Yorkshire combined event would seem more complicated, as nobodies interests are fully served that well. As you say I could see Yorkshire being up for it, going it alone, as they seemingly were before, but there can only be a maximum of 100km of forest road available now, even less of a WRC worthy standard. So realistically I think we'll only see Wales, NI and Scotland rotating.

    All that aside, while I don't like to see the UK treated as a special case in general (Brexit...), I think the potential popularity of Rally GB is still intrinsically linked to a return to an RAC style rally. I can't see anything other than that truly reigniting an interest amongst the general public/sponsors. To me it'd make sense for the FIA/WRC Promoter to allow Rally Monte Carlo, the Safari and Rally GB (start, middle-ish and end of calendar) a bit of leeway to be something different from the standard 350km cloverleaf model. If you look at some of the long road sections being permitted to get to and from SSS on some WRC rounds in recent years, I don't think the likes of Deeside/Chester to Grisedale or Carlisle to Hamsterley to Cropton (without return or repeat trips) compare too badly...

    Quote Originally Posted by er88 View Post
    However without major sponsors it's simply not feasible. Visit Scotland put a lot of money into the IRC rally but it still wasn't enough without another major sponsor and more interest. If there is potential for something to happen in NI or Scotland it would be nice if IMS didn't tie events arms behind their back from the get go, unless they want more failure. I already fear for Wales this year with the service park being moved from Deeside which has easy access from huge population centres like Liverpool, Manchester etc. Instead it'll be crammed into a small seaside town on the north east tip of Wales. Smells of potential chaos but I hope I'm wrong.
    Entirely agree. Personally I can see this being the first year that I don't go to the service park...

    Quote Originally Posted by er88 View Post
    I think Rally GB does need a change up and re located but I don't trust IMS to manage it properly at all - even if they did get a major sponsor on board. Once the event falls off the WRC calendar it won't come back for a long, long time - despite any promises or PR bullshit the organisers come out with. It's so important it remains for the rallying scene in the UK.
    That must be the fear, a risk which I think can be seen across various elements of British rallying. Once it stops, the impetus to keep the show on the road may be lost. Ten years ago I think you could argue that Rally GB only kept going because the MSA at least didn't think they could get away with letting it die...
    Last edited by the sniper; 16th May 2019 at 21:28.

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  15. #2030
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allez Andruet View Post
    Thank god they have. What I find astonishing, is that now that we finally have the brutally beautiful WRC machinery that the sport craved for years (better second coming of Group B than anyone had ever hoped for), someone still thinks it would be better to keep those cars in the garage rather than let them terrorize the special stages for the pleasure of rally fans. I just don't get the logic.
    The logic is quite simple: despite being brutally beautiful machines, current WRC cars are too expensive for national rally use and for that reason they can’t provide a large and competitive national top rally field, like most rally fans want and R5 cars are providing. In that sense crews using R5's must be protected (not only in terms of championship points but also on their rally overall win chances) and occasional WRC entries should only be allowed in demo mode.
    Rally addict since 1982

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