[WRC] News & Rumours 2019

[AnttiL]

No No No, you don't understand.
The point is, that you will need a lot of budget to fight for "only" a class win. Overall you can't do much. It's easier to find a bit more money if you can challenge for overall win.
Fe, let's say you need 100.000 for a program with an R5 car and 75.000 for the same program with an R4. It will be easier to find that 100.000 as you challenge for the overall win. You get much more return than for a class win.

In Finland this is different, we don't have overall points or championships, but four equal championships for different types of cars. Even when the rallies were televisioned on a national channel, all the classes were shown equally from home-built FWD Civics to the Fabia R5's.

[Mirek]

The price difference isn’t just 20%, it’s about 30% (Oreca made a discount over the kit initial price) and that’s a lot of money. A R4 can be bought for 160k while a R5 costs over 230k (I bet a Polo costs much more…); running costs difference is even bigger as R4 engine is almost stock and once the cars are built locally there’s no need for expensive rebuilds on the manu official tuners, like in R5. Besides, we shouldn’t mix R4/R5 target costumers; R5 will always be used by top national and international drivers and teams, while R4 purpose is to give amateurs a change to replace their aging N4 cars and also provide R2 young drivers a more affordable option to keep their careers moving forwards.

There’s a market for R4, both in national and international series, but the FIA has made a terrible choice launching R4 through a single supplier; after all the delays and the kit initial price, Oreca is still failing to promote R4 in a proper way. That’s a shame.

Polo can not cost more than other R5 cars because of the rules.

Complete R4 car shall cost between 180-190k (per Oreca).

We can absolutely mix R4 and R5 target customers because they are in the same cost group. Look at the teams competing today and tell me who can buy R4 right now? Only the teams running R5 car can, no teams with gr.N, R3 or R2 cars can do that without massive raise of budget.

Those 30% may be a lot in absolute numbers but as Anton said it's likely easier to find extra 30% for a project in the top level than 30% less for something so obscure as a certain class (that's how most of potential sponsors naturally see it - because they go after exposure). In other words it's for sure easier to find money for second hand R5 than for new R4. And there are tons of used R5 everywhere.

R4 is a good idea for overseas markets with high import duties for R5 cars. The potential market in Europe is very small, it will likely end similar to R-GT. You will meet them here and there but they will never become anything important.

But maybe I am wrong. We'll see.

[br21]

If someone has good R4 for sale for 160k let me know, I will buy!
Top spec Polo costs around 230k, VW can't charge more as it's (well) controlled by the FIA.

[Allez Andruet]

Fe, let's say you need 100.000 for a program with an R5 car and 75.000 for the same program with an R4. It will be easier to find that 100.000 as you challenge for the overall win. You get much more return than for a class win.

Do you really? Sincerely asking, not saying you'd be right or wrong. Not that I would have a strong opinion of my own on the subject, but I assume that these days the exposure driver/car/sponsor gets, is somewhat dependent on self-marketing and using all available channels to increase brand awareness (or whatever the sponsor is seeking from the sponsorship deal, usually sponsorship - on the level we're talking about here - is about brand awareness). I.e. it's less and less about having the picture of the overall winner in a newspaper and more about being able to win (or to fight for the victory). And in that sense I doubt that the 100k would be "easier" to get for R5 campaign than the 75k for R4 campaign. Assuming that these two classes are equal competition wise.

[dupanton]

Do you really? Sincerely asking, not saying you'd be right or wrong. Not that I would have a strong opinion of my own on the subject, but I assume that these days the exposure driver/car/sponsor gets, is somewhat dependent on self-marketing and using all available channels to increase brand awareness (or whatever the sponsor is seeking from the sponsorship deal, usually sponsorship - on the level we're talking about here - is about brand awareness). I.e. it's less and less about having the picture of the overall winner in a newspaper and more about being able to win (or to fight for the victory). And in that sense I doubt that the 100k would be "easier" to get for R5 campaign than the 75k for R4 campaign. Assuming that these two classes are equal competition wise.

For the Belgian Championship, there is a television report of each round, sunday afternoon, on the public television channel. They basically only showed the R5 cars. 2 or 3 images of the Junior winner and 3 other cars who won their classes for a short flash.
I'm sure the success of the Belgian championship is due to the television coverage.

If I see who can get a budget together for a top car now, I'm sure it's "relatively" easy. It's still a lot of money off course.

[tommeke_B]

Rally culture is different from country to country. In Belgium most drivers don't care much about social media, they don't have any own capital to drive an R5 car, and still they manage to bring the money together for it. I think the picture of overall winner in newspaper and on tv still counts, very much! Also in Belgium many (if not most) of the spectators are interested in the top crews only, and go from stage to stage following the top 15-20 drivers.

[Mirek]

For the Belgian Championship, there is a television report of each round, sunday afternoon, on the public television channel. They basically only showed the R5 cars. 2 or 3 images of the Junior winner and 3 other cars who won their classes for a short flash.
I'm sure the success of the Belgian championship is due to the television coverage.

If I see who can get a budget together for a top car now, I'm sure it's "relatively" easy. It's still a lot of money off course.

Here as well the media exposure of gr.N drivers is close to non existent. Juniors in R2 cars have much more media exposure than them and that is still only a fraction of what R5 drivers get. Also on the rally servers and forums you can see that people are interested in the overall standings and in the juniors and basically nothing else. Same goes to ERC2. Nobody cares about it.

[Rally Power]

Top spec Polo costs around 230k, VW can't charge more as it's (well) controlled by the FIA.

I actually remember reading an interview of an i20 R5 buyer saying a full spec new car was costing 250k (at the start of 2018).

Complete R4 car shall cost between 180-190k (per Oreca).

That was Oreca initial estimation, before the kit price reduction. A finished car costs now around 160k; you can confirm it with ASM here https://r4rallycars.com/

Those 30% may be a lot in absolute numbers but as Anton said it's likely easier to find extra 30% for a project in the top level than 30% less for something so obscure as a certain class (that's how most of potential sponsors naturally see it - because they go after exposure). In other words it's for sure easier to find money for second hand R5 than for new R4. And there are tons of used R5 everywhere.

According to your logic of only using top machines, what’s the point of running an old 208 or a first spec used Fiesta? Actually, as not everybody is aiming for the top 10 and there’s no alternative to N4, some amateurs are tempted to get a used R5, but repair or rebuilding costs may soon turn their R5 adventure into a nightmare (I know a few cases).

Honestly I can’t understand why so many people here are against a new category that could bring more drivers and even new brands to the sport. I see R4 as a needed complement to the current rally classes, not as a threat to the existing categories.

Unfortunately, without a better clarification of the rules by the FIA or the local ASN’s and a proper promotion from Oreca and their partners R4 may fail, as it seems hard to get new costumers in the current uncertainty; people won’t probably spent 160k for a car without having more clues about its future.

[dimviii]

According to your logic

Honestly I can’t understand why so many people here are against a new category that could bring more drivers and even new brands to the sport. I see R4 as a needed complement to the current rally classes, not as a threat to the existing categories.

.

mate its not his logic,its the reality.
We are not against,how could be to be against?,but its not going to work.
Costs are very close to the r5 category
there is no room for 2 different very close performance classes at most countries.
so top drivers will go for r5=no interesting for r4 class for drivers,and spectators sponsors etc

[Mirek]

And it's actually the same story like with R-GT. People also believed that it would work based on the very same arguments. It will be fun to drive, cheaper than R5 to run etc. Is it fun to drive? Yes. Is it cheaper than R5 to run? Yes. Does it work? No. Why? Because it's not competitive enough to justify its price.