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  1. #1
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    4WD Cars with national/regional homologation

    What countries have ASNs with currage to homologate 4wd cars that are cheaper than R4/R5?
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sulland View Post
    What countries have ASNs with currage to homologate 4wd cars that are cheaper than R4/R5?
    In other words: Which countries are so stupid that they donīt play with FIA rules?
    (Those countries donīt want their drivers to have international career)
    "quattro best 4wd rallycar ever"

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    It is fully up to the national body to approve a car type that FIA has not.

    It cant be any worse than continue with the older cars in your F-Cup where some cars are pretty special (and very quick), than allowing the Mirage or the Dytko cars. Cars that are new and hopefully safer, if it was safety that was your argument?

    In Norway we have a class for old Group A/N cars, where int homologation has expired, many nations has the same I guess. But costwise they are not cheap to run.

    The whole reason to make a new R4 class was to make a class to replace N4, that had a very healthy 2nd hand market. Cheap entrance for drivers wanting to test 4wd.
    FIA failed miserably, and R4 will be very close to R5 in new price, running costs to early to tell.

    In track racing most countries have classes approved nationally, is that also not ok, and is that in your book Pantalex also "not playing by FIA rules"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pantealex View Post
    In other words: Which countries are so stupid that they donīt play with FIA rules?
    (Those countries donīt want their drivers to have international career)
    I don't believe that is strictly true. For example, AP4 is a good way to get near to R5 performance from a car, that is supported by a local manufacturer that otherwise wouldn't be in the sport... So that allows a competitor to compete, whereas otherwise they may not have been able to get enough sponsorship to compete if they had to be in an FIA car. Example here in NZ is the AP4 Holden Barina. Not a car you can buy anywhere else and without Holden footing the bill, I don't imagine the 2 guys driving them would be in the sport as they probably wouldn't be in a position to afford another car that is as fast. So by being able to introduce another manufacturer to the sport, it makes the sport stronger and gives opportunity to get exposure.

    I don't believe the car dictates whether you can compete internationally later on. However you do have to use it for it's purpose, competing in the country that allows them and then realise to go to other countires you may have to rent a car. Ie going from national championship to ERC or JWRC etc, would require hiring a car to then take that step up. Fortunately things like JWRC make that a relatively easy process.

  5. Likes: Hartusvuori (18th December 2017),Maui J. (19th December 2017),Rally Power (18th December 2017)
  6. #5
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    It's quite different in Europe and overseas. Here in Europe there is quite a huge number of used R5/S2000 available everywhere and it's for sure true that an ASN which keeps its rules in accordance with FIA helps its drivers to get abroad (and vice versa). On the other hand sometimes it's really hard to swallow what FIA invents and especially on the starter and really cheap level it's dificult to have someone competiting and follow FIA rules in the same time (as You know there is only one R1 available on the market for example).

    So IMHO it's good if ASN allows local cars and applies some local rules BUT what I do think is that the top class in every national championship shall be FIA-compatible to avoid Spanish scenario from several years back when the top national league is totally isolated from the outer world - it means drivers don't go abroad and the national level slowly degrades because there is no influence from continental/world level.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  7. Likes: janvanvurpa (21st December 2017),pantealex (18th December 2017)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    It's quite different in Europe and overseas. Here in Europe there is quite a huge number of used R5/S2000 available everywhere and it's for sure true that an ASN which keeps its rules in accordance with FIA helps its drivers to get abroad (and vice versa). On the other hand sometimes it's really hard to swallow what FIA invents and especially on the starter and really cheap level it's dificult to have someone competiting and follow FIA rules in the same time (as You know there is only one R1 available on the market for example).

    So IMHO it's good if ASN allows local cars and applies some local rules BUT what I do think is that the top class in every national championship shall be FIA-compatible to avoid Spanish scenario from several years back when the top national league is totally isolated from the outer world - it means drivers don't go abroad and the national level slowly degrades because there is no influence from continental/world level.
    You are correct. But there are 3 R1 cars: Ds3, Twingo and Fiesta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupanton View Post
    You are correct. But there are 3 R1 cars: Ds3, Twingo and Fiesta
    and 0 of those are in production anymore.
    "quattro best 4wd rallycar ever"

  10. #8
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    Well starter was provocative, so I answered in same way.

    Those self built 4wd cars are allowed in Finland, but they run in separate classes and canīt score any championship points. I have nothing against that, but it should stay like that.

    Biggest problem to me is: How to keep these cars slower than R4/R5, because already now rules in Finland are wrong, you can make old car way too powerful/good, 2 examples:
    FIN-R evo9 is more powerful than Mitsu WRC02 which is allowed in FIA spec only.
    Old Civic EP3 FIN-R is more powerful than Civic R3, all R3īs are in garages because old model is quicker.

    Also Polo with mitsu engine sounds stupid.
    "quattro best 4wd rallycar ever"

  11. #9
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    It's quite different in Europe and overseas. Here in Europe there is quite a huge number of used R5/S2000 available everywhere and it's for sure true that an ASN which keeps its rules in accordance with FIA helps its drivers to get abroad (and vice versa). On the other hand sometimes it's really hard to swallow what FIA invents and especially on the starter and really cheap level it's dificult to have someone competiting and follow FIA rules in the same time (as You know there is only one R1 available on the market for example).
    So IMHO it's good if ASN allows local cars and applies some local rules BUT what I do think is that the top class in every national championship shall be FIA-compatible to avoid Spanish scenario from several years back when the top national league is totally isolated from the outer world - it means drivers don't go abroad and the national level slowly degrades because there is no influence from continental/world level.
    This year, R5 was promoted to top category in spanish main series (besides the popular 911’s, N+ cars were also restricted, leading to Mitsubishi team departure) but only a handful of them were used; besides, no official team entered the championship on a R5 car, although Suzuki and Renault decided to be there running N5 cars (despite being inferior, each day N5’s are getting closer to R5’s speed).

    We all know that importers teams are always a plus, once they bring the media and their dealers net to the sport; it’s also obvious that on long series like the CERA, R5 cars are too expensive to run for most privateer drivers and teams.

    ASN's must try to do the best for their series in order to have more teams and drivers competing and they don’t need to wait for FIA to give them a help; RFEA move to N5 didn’t harm the CERA, on the contrary, and if they decide to make them (or R4) more competitive towards R5, it’ll certainly help to make the series stronger.

    Btw, nowadays young guys trying an international rally career don’t need to run top cars on their home series as they start competing at ERC or WRC level in a R2 car.
    Rally addict since 1982

  12. Likes: electroliquid (18th December 2017)
  13. #10
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    If peoples want to participate in WRC/ERC rallie they would find a way even owning and doing home events with national cars. WRC/ERC entry list would be way longer. But we don't have that situation now. If all international/national event reach maximum allowed number of entrants, like Rally Saaremaa, then ASN could ban national cars. Now, I think, should be allowed to drive with anything that has wheels, rollcages, and engine capacity bellow maximum limited; how to keep equality - it's another question. It's not the best way, but for now it's only way, to keep rallying alive. Without national cars, many of national/local events had only a few participants, it leads to less spectators, less money for organization, and then even less crews, etc. etc.

  14. Likes: janvanvurpa (21st December 2017)

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