Hybrid World Rally Cars

[Kenneth]

What's your point here? You know that GT3 is to circuit racing the same what is Rally2 to rally?

[Sergiow]

What's your point here? You know that GT3 is to circuit racing the same what is Rally2 to rally?

The Rally1 cars are a blast when experiencing live on the rally stage. No doubt about that. Although you need to be careful with comparisons because the power to weigh ratio of Rally1 and GT3 might be very close. But actually in WRC there are only 2,5 constructors for those Rally1 cars which makes the current WRC absolutely not sustainable. And the budget saving measures (less testing and upgrades) are making it even worser. Adamo in his latest Rallysimo interview was already suggesting some souped up Rally2 car to replace the current crop of expensive Rally1 cars. My point is 2 fold:

1) The GTWC championship is organised by SRO Motorsports Group, not the FIA, it was in fact SRO who launched the whole GT3 hoopla not the FIA, so trusting the FIA with the very future of WRC might not be the best idea; even DTM is jumping ship to GT3 (the move from Class 1 to GT3 attracted more manufacturers and teams in DTM that couldn't previously compete in the series due to high cost!!!!) even Le Mans will get GT3 in 2024

2) The current crop of Rally1 do not have a viable customer model just like GT3 and its feeder series do have (for example, adding up the first and second generations of the Audi R8 LMS, a total of 275 GT3 sports cars have been built of this type). You can not even participate with a Rally1 car in a national Rally championship (at least not in Belgium I think)

[Sulland]

Have any of the teams managed to put in an electric AC yet?

[WRCStan]

What's your point here? You know that GT3 is to circuit racing the same what is Rally2 to rally?

The Rally1 cars are a blast when experiencing live on the rally stage. No doubt about that. Although you need to be careful with comparisons because the power to weigh ratio of Rally1 and GT3 might be very close. But actually in WRC there are only 2,5 constructors for those Rally1 cars which makes the current WRC absolutely not sustainable. And the budget saving measures (less testing and upgrades) are making it even worser. Adamo in his latest Rallysimo interview was already suggesting some souped up Rally2 car to replace the current crop of expensive Rally1 cars. My point is 2 fold:

1) The GTWC championship is organised by SRO Motorsports Group, not the FIA, it was in fact SRO who launched the whole GT3 hoopla not the FIA, so trusting the FIA with the very future of WRC might not be the best idea; even DTM is jumping ship to GT3 (the move from Class 1 to GT3 attracted more manufacturers and teams in DTM that couldn't previously compete in the series due to high cost!!!!) even Le Mans will get GT3 in 2024

2) The current crop of Rally1 do not have a viable customer model just like GT3 and its feeder series do have (for example, adding up the first and second generations of the Audi R8 LMS, a total of 275 GT3 sports cars have been built of this type). You can not even participate with a Rally1 car in a national Rally championship (at least not in Belgium I think)

Still where Kenneth was because I don't think this comparison stands up. What about the prototype and hypercars in the GT space, aren't they the better direct comparison for Rally1? And does GTWC carry the same prestige and pinnacle in world GT racing as WRC is to Rallying? (ie better than WEC, I don't know) Nobody designed or approved hybrid Rally1 with customers, regional or local events/championships in mind; maybe Adamo initially disagreed with that but ultimately he went along with it. If your point is top level world rally should be accessible to all, fair enough, but I'm not sure GT3 makes great reasoning.

[focus206]

Still where Kenneth was because I don't think this comparison stands up. What about the prototype and hypercars in the GT space, aren't they the better direct comparison for Rally1? And does GTWC carry the same prestige and pinnacle in world GT racing as WRC is to Rallying? (ie better than WEC, I don't know) Nobody designed or approved hybrid Rally1 with customers, regional or local events/championships in mind; maybe Adamo initially disagreed with that but ultimately he went along with it. If your point is top level world rally should be accessible to all, fair enough, but I'm not sure GT3 makes great reasoning.

I can answer some of those GT questions:
I wouldn't consider prototypes on the same ladder as GT cars, they're on a different ladder: LMP1/Hypercars, LMP2, LMP3.
GT cars' ladder is GTE, GT3, GT4.
To the mainstream medias, WEC is far more important than GTWC, mainly because of Le Mans and prototypes. This year GTWC gained notoriety because of Valentino Rossi joining, otherwise it wasn't much more than Spa 24h for the mainsteam medias.
But speaking about the prestige given by the fans, I've never met a GT racing enthusiast who prefers WEC over GTWC (some prefers even the GT4 championship), and I agree. GTWC has many more manufacturers compared to the 2-3 in the WEC GTE, much better balance of performance (not uncommon at all that one of the 2-3 manufacturers in GTE has almost no chance of winning a race because of weight/power) and in GTWC the focus is always on GT cars.
For my taste, GTWC is the best circuit racing series around.

[mknight]

The situation about Rally1/WRC being only for manus, expensive and not able to start in local rallies has been basically the same since like 2006. (and they are not 100% correct).

They were also valid in 2012-2016 with the "cheap" WRCs.

So while a discussion about Rally1 vs "Rally2(+)" is interesting, the main point in this resurected thead was hybrid vs no hybrid in otherwise similar car.

On a sidenote, while Rally2 has certainly been extremely sucessfull as a class it is now down to only 2 brands developing their cars. How long will the other cars stay competetive and whether the class survives in current form more than a few more years is a big guestion.

[AndyRAC]

I can answer some of those GT questions:
I wouldn't consider prototypes on the same ladder as GT cars, they're on a different ladder: LMP1/Hypercars, LMP2, LMP3.
GT cars' ladder is GTE, GT3, GT4.
To the mainstream medias, WEC is far more important than GTWC, mainly because of Le Mans and prototypes. This year GTWC gained notoriety because of Valentino Rossi joining, otherwise it wasn't much more than Spa 24h for the mainsteam medias.
But speaking about the prestige given by the fans, I've never met a GT racing enthusiast who prefers WEC over GTWC (some prefers even the GT4 championship), and I agree. GTWC has many more manufacturers compared to the 2-3 in the WEC GTE, much better balance of performance (not uncommon at all that one of the 2-3 manufacturers in GTE has almost no chance of winning a race because of weight/power) and in GTWC the focus is always on GT cars.
For my taste, GTWC is the best circuit racing series around.

Yes, GT3 racing is probably the most competitive 4 wheeled motorsport around; plenty of series around the globe, lots of cars, and virtually all of the top drivers driving them. Bathurst 12 hours, Nurburgring 24 hours, Spa 24 hours will see them all racing each other. We've just had a Spa 24 hour two day test, this weekend sees another NLS (VLN) round on the Nordschleife. The BoP seen in SRO GT3 events seems to be fairer than the ACO version in the WEC, but that isn't a surprise.

[AndyRAC]

The situation about Rally1/WRC being only for manus, expensive and not able to start in local rallies has been basically the same since like 2006. (and they are not 100% correct).

They were also valid in 2012-2016 with the "cheap" WRCs.

So while a discussion about Rally1 vs "Rally2(+)" is interesting, the main point in this resurrected thread was hybrid vs no hybrid in an otherwise similar car.

On a sidenote, while Rally2 has certainly been extremely successful as a class it is now down to only 2 brands developing their cars. How long will the other cars stay competitive and whether the class survives in current form more than a few more years is a big guestion.

Yes, so we see three manufacturers in Rally 1, and only two are developing their cars in Rally 2; that's not great, and rather worrying. The sport needs to attract more in both classes.

[WRCStan]

I can answer some of those GT questions:
I wouldn't consider prototypes on the same ladder as GT cars, they're on a different ladder: LMP1/Hypercars, LMP2, LMP3.
GT cars' ladder is GTE, GT3, GT4.
To the mainstream medias, WEC is far more important than GTWC, mainly because of Le Mans and prototypes. This year GTWC gained notoriety because of Valentino Rossi joining, otherwise it wasn't much more than Spa 24h for the mainsteam medias.
But speaking about the prestige given by the fans, I've never met a GT racing enthusiast who prefers WEC over GTWC (some prefers even the GT4 championship), and I agree. GTWC has many more manufacturers compared to the 2-3 in the WEC GTE, much better balance of performance (not uncommon at all that one of the 2-3 manufacturers in GTE has almost no chance of winning a race because of weight/power) and in GTWC the focus is always on GT cars.
For my taste, GTWC is the best circuit racing series around.

Gotcha, thanks. Perhaps a split between Rally1/WRC Manufacturers and WRC2/3 may be a more popular idea than I first imagined. To that end, I don't care whether hybrid is/was the right idea and only the three manus can answer that anyway.

[Sergiow]

So while a discussion about Rally1 vs "Rally2(+)" is interesting, the main point in this resurected thead was hybrid vs no hybrid in otherwise similar car.

Alright, then let us discuss hybrid vs no hybrid and have a look at this very recent interview with AMG’s customer racing boss Stefan Wendl about GT3 racing. The title of the article says it all: "Mercedes-AMG Looking to Introduce New GT3 Car in 2025". Nowhere in this article is any mentioning of 'hybrid' nor electric. And this article is also given a good insight about the homologation process of GT3"

Stefan Wendl told Sportscar365 at last weekend’s Liqui-Moly Bathurst 12 Hour that the Mercedes-AMG GT3 Evo is set to continue as the brand’s flagship GT racing product until the end of 2024. He suggested that the end of the current Evo model’s homologation period after the 2024 season “could be a good chance” for Mercedes-AMG to introduce a successor.

The Mercedes-AMG GT3 made its global debut with customer teams in 2016 and was given an Evo update ahead of the 2020 season. Wendl gave a vote of confidence in how GT3 has been managed by the FIA, which is responsible for vehicle homologation, and SRO Motorsports Group which sets the Balance of Performance in several key championships and founded the worldwide formula.

“I am quite happy about how the FIA and SRO handle the evolution of GT3 cars,” said Wendl.

“Since 2015-16, since the group of cars like the Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Audi and us came, there was a growth of manufacturers in that homologation period.

https://sportscar365.com/industry/me...3-car-in-2025/