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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by henners88 View Post
    What evidence do you have that Lewis is 'trouble'?

    You simply dislike him to the point all other objective discussion is pushed aside because of it. No speculation is ever put where Lewis is not to blame for anything in your eyes. Once upon a time you were like Jens. You didn't have a favourite driver but were able to give a measured opinion. Now it's just overly negative bias and that's very sad.
    Maybe I should have said "has trouble getting along with team-mates , and strategists"

    Lewis is really good .
    Make that really , really good .

    But , he's got such incredible self-belief that it gets way under his skin way too fast if he's not faster than the guy in equal machinery .

    And , usually , that's not a problem , because he is so damn fast .


    The "trouble" of which I speak is the trouble to which Toto points .
    It's not getting along with your team-mate , and questioning strategy .



    It doesn't matter how many times you tell me that I hate or dislike Lewis .
    It won't work .

    I love the guy . He's great .
    He's like a ticking time bomb , always good for controversy on track and off . You never know what's coming next .


    Even if you say that Toto's words were a warning for them both , who do you think it rang louder for when he said that either of them could go ?
    Do you think it would be the guy with the longer contract ?
    Or , maybe the guy with the more lucrative contract ?
    Or , perhaps the guy who just won them 2 titles ?

    He's not bigger than the team .



    And , I've never been as cool as Jens .

  2. Likes: Mia 01 (4th December 2015)
  3. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Now , Mr. Knight , you know what a contract is worth in F1 .

    And , your Lewis has just been shown that they will change the car to suit Nico , despite his protests , and that Rosberg can win consistently as a result .

    Behind the scenes , you'd have to figure that Rosberg was watching from the other side of the garage as Lewis tried to work with the new suspension .
    And , thus , he saw it as an opportunity to show off in what he called a "mini-championship" of three races .

    That's what he did , with poles and wins in all three .
    All sewn up , with no drama .

    Whereas Hamilton was such a pouty second that they had to hand him the strategy calls in the final outing .

    Remember , they get the privilege of dealing with Lewis's antics for a much larger paycheck than old boring Nico .

    You repeated a couple of times that Lewis is faster .
    You're right that he was faster with the old configuration of the suspension , because it suited him rather than Nico .
    Now , though , it's rather the other way around .


    One could say that his flash marketing perspective is all he's got right now , without the outright pace to "humiliate" his team-mate , like he did earlier this year with a car that suited him rather than his team-mate .

    Lewis is fast . Of that there is absolutely no doubt .
    Any team would be happy with that .
    And , he's outgoing , and going out to all the hot spots with all the hot people , bringing lots of bling and lines of press for F1 and his team , and any team should be happy with that .

    But , he's trouble , and no team needs that .
    Unfortunately, it is sentences like this that let you down. The idea that any team would change modifications to intentionally disadvantage one of their drivers is just absurd. There is no evidence or nor has there ever been a suggestion from Lewis or anyone that Mercedes modified the car to suit Nico. They modified it to prevent a Singapore repeat with a side affect being it disadvantaged Hamilton. This is pretty obvious. I haven't read the rest of your post because you're back to making ridiculous stuff up again and I couldn't be bothered nitpicking at every line you write that is without foundation.
    Last edited by The Black Knight; 4th December 2015 at 16:54.

  4. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Unfortunately, it is sentences like this that let you down. The idea that any team would change modifications to intentionally disadvantage one of their drivers is just absurd. There is no evidence or nor has there ever been a suggestion from Lewis or anyone that Mercedes modified the car to suit Nico. They modified it to prevent a Singapore repeat with a side affect being it disadvantaged Hamilton. This is pretty obvious. I haven't read the rest of your post because you're back to making ridiculous stuff up again and I couldn't be bothered nitpicking at every line you write that is without foundation.
    True, Mercedes had to modify the car for the higher pressures imposed by Pirelli. Clearly the resulting setup of the car has favored Rosberg with Hamilton looking somewhat lost and showing signs of frustration with the new setup.
    I agree it would be wrong to suggest that Mercedes have made the changes to favor Rosberg. Rosberg has adapted better than Hamilton to the new setup, hence have beaten Hamilton fair and square to three consecutive pole positions and race wins.

    That said, the resulting difference in performance between Rosberg and Hamilton is puzzling enough for many to speculate. At Abu Dhabi, it was over 0.300sec, which was clearly a huge reversal performance considering Hamilton was regularly about 0.200sec faster than Rosberg on most qualifying sessions prior to Singapore. That was a loss of roughly 0.500sec to a full second of performance. This sort of change is noticeable and very puzzling and food for wild speculations.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 4th December 2015 at 18:06.

  5. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Unfortunately, it is sentences like this that let you down. The idea that any team would change modifications to intentionally disadvantage one of their drivers is just absurd. There is no evidence or nor has there ever been a suggestion from Lewis or anyone that Mercedes modified the car to suit Nico. They modified it to prevent a Singapore repeat with a side affect being it disadvantaged Hamilton. This is pretty obvious. I haven't read the rest of your post because you're back to making ridiculous stuff up again and I couldn't be bothered nitpicking at every line you write that is without foundation.
    So , I'll take it as you needing me to rephrase what I said , so you won't misinterpret it again .

    Whatever Merc did with the suspension has disadvantaged Lewis .
    He , himself , mentions that they wouldn't change it back despite his protests .

    So , in actual fact , they have , knowingly , albeit with intent to make the car faster , given a distinct advantage to Nico , and a similar disadvantage to Lewis .
    Now he's in the very same boat that Nico was in earlier in the year , unable to get the car working as well as his team-mate , and behind by about the same margin .


    He's responded to Toto's rant about team unity , but only to "poo poo" it , saying :
    “So it is difficult, but this side is always blown out of proportion. We have had 16 one-twos, so our relationship isn’t really causing any problems.It is not like he has been distracted and not finished high up or vice versa, so I think ultimately it is easy for people to take things for granted. We have both done a great job.”


    So , the guy writing the check says there's a problem , and the guy who's getting the check says there isn't .

    Anybody else see the problem here , or is it just me ?

  6. #215
    Senior Member Jag_Warrior's Avatar
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    I agree with you, Bagwan, in that if the guy writing the check (sort of) says that there is a problem, then there is a problem... within the team, at least. But I think it's more likely that Mercedes and Wolff are playing the long game here, looking ahead to 2017 and beyond, when the gap to Ferrari, and maybe Red Bull and others, will have probably closed. Both Hamilton and Rosberg scored enough points individually this year that even with Susie Wolff in the second car, Mercedes would have still captured 3rd place in the Constructors Championship. With this dominant monster of a car, either one of them, paired with a roughly competent second driver, could have probably delivered a Constructors trophy, which is what Mercedes really cares about. But once the gap closes (and it will), the question becomes, what driver lineup can still deliver the big annual trophy at the end of a season? Against a Vettel (or whomever) in a strong car, we know from past history that Hamilton can go wheel to wheel. We don't know that about Rosberg. We only know that on occasion he can deliver the goods. So despite his season ending form, if I'm looking at the long game, and also knowing the Nico's contract is up at the end of next season, I don't think that I'd be too confident, if I were Nico.

    Hamilton's deal runs through the end of 2018, if I'm not mistaken. And while they could play with whether or not Lewis is on track in a silver car, Mercedes will still be writing him a $50 million (or whatever) check every year. IMO, they could just as easily find another, more obedient second driver to pair with Hamilton... unless Nico learns to sing "Don't Worry, Be Happy". My guess is, as Nico starts negotiating his new post-2016 contract in a few months, there will be terms in his new deal which will "encourage" him to sing along to that old Bobby McFerrin album. However it pans out, I think Mercedes is going to have to find a way to quieten things down between these two before the heated battle of 2017 and beyond begins.
    "Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

  7. #216
    Senior Member Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    ....
    But , he's trouble , and no team needs that .
    I am wise (and old on the forums) enough not to get caught up in the my driver your driver BS thesedays..but tht sentence makes no sense.

    What trouble has Hamilton caused exactly? (btw I am NOT a fan of LH , I do admire his driving skills)
    if it's off track stuff etc no I'm not really bothered...but has he done anything to jeopardize his seat?
    He is a triple WC. Of course every team would be dying to get him on-board.
    Tito Vilanova = :champion:

  8. Likes: henners88 (4th December 2015)
  9. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    I am wise (and old on the forums) enough not to get caught up in the my driver your driver BS thesedays..but tht sentence makes no sense.

    What trouble has Hamilton caused exactly? (btw I am NOT a fan of LH , I do admire his driving skills)
    if it's off track stuff etc no I'm not really bothered...but has he done anything to jeopardize his seat?
    He is a triple WC. Of course every team would be dying to get him on-board.
    Well , forum-wise , I'm older , and it seems you have been caught up in the conversation , so I'm not sure you are wise enough to stay out of it either , Storm , old man .

    He doesn't get on with team-mates too well , and questions his team regularly .
    You had better be fast if you are disruptive .

    And , according to Toto , he was trying hard .

    He just wasn't fast enough .

  10. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    I am wise (and old on the forums) enough not to get caught up in the my driver your driver BS thesedays..but tht sentence makes no sense.

    What trouble has Hamilton caused exactly? (btw I am NOT a fan of LH , I do admire his driving skills)
    if it's off track stuff etc no I'm not really bothered...but has he done anything to jeopardize his seat?
    He is a triple WC. Of course every team would be dying to get him on-board.
    Bagwan is notoriously anti-Hamilton, hence his perspective is unlikely to be objective.

  11. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Bagwan is notoriously anti-Hamilton, hence his perspective is unlikely to be objective.
    You know , Nitro , the world needs guys in black hats as well as ones in white ones .

    Hamilton's bad boy rapper image fits perfectly with the series right now , and the disruption within the team has been what has really made it interesting this season .
    Without the tension between Nico and Lewis , it could have been a much bigger yawn .

    Sure , I've been on Nico's side in most of the debates this season , but I think I've been reasonably consistent in my assessments of the clashes .

    I try not to get too bent out of shape when folks brand me on here .
    But , I'd rather they debate about the actual topic .

    If you think I'm wrong about anything , then , by all means , take me to task about it . I'm game .


    And , don't worry , as Storm can take care of himself .
    He's wiser than I , as I've been involved in this debate for longer .

  12. Likes: Mia 01 (6th December 2015)
  13. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post
    I agree with you, Bagwan, in that if the guy writing the check (sort of) says that there is a problem, then there is a problem... within the team, at least. But I think it's more likely that Mercedes and Wolff are playing the long game here, looking ahead to 2017 and beyond, when the gap to Ferrari, and maybe Red Bull and others, will have probably closed. Both Hamilton and Rosberg scored enough points individually this year that even with Susie Wolff in the second car, Mercedes would have still captured 3rd place in the Constructors Championship. With this dominant monster of a car, either one of them, paired with a roughly competent second driver, could have probably delivered a Constructors trophy, which is what Mercedes really cares about. But once the gap closes (and it will), the question becomes, what driver lineup can still deliver the big annual trophy at the end of a season? Against a Vettel (or whomever) in a strong car, we know from past history that Hamilton can go wheel to wheel. We don't know that about Rosberg. We only know that on occasion he can deliver the goods. So despite his season ending form, if I'm looking at the long game, and also knowing the Nico's contract is up at the end of next season, I don't think that I'd be too confident, if I were Nico.

    Hamilton's deal runs through the end of 2018, if I'm not mistaken. And while they could play with whether or not Lewis is on track in a silver car, Mercedes will still be writing him a $50 million (or whatever) check every year. IMO, they could just as easily find another, more obedient second driver to pair with Hamilton... unless Nico learns to sing "Don't Worry, Be Happy". My guess is, as Nico starts negotiating his new post-2016 contract in a few months, there will be terms in his new deal which will "encourage" him to sing along to that old Bobby McFerrin album. However it pans out, I think Mercedes is going to have to find a way to quieten things down between these two before the heated battle of 2017 and beyond begins.
    The interesting thing about Toto Wolffs comments though, is he says he would change either of his drivers if their actions is damaging to the team. The thing that l am trying to fathom is what sort of actions that may have transpired this year by either driver, may be construed as damaging to the Mercedes team? Of course we don't know what happens behind the scenes in the garage. On track, l wonder if questioning the pitwall decision is perceived as damaging or what is said at driver press post race interviews.

    It just smacks of overreaction to me and a clear frustration with managing an equal status driver lineup. This year has on occasion looked like Merc were fostering someone else's unruly children and have had enough. Abu Dhabi was pretty ugly. The pitwall were quite heavy handed with Hamilton. The business with engine level seemed like Hamilton and his pitwall engineers were not on the same page. One can deduce from Monaco 2014 that Hamilton has some level of doubt of his pitwall engineers. The seemingly fractured relationship seem to have reached a point where it has spilled over into the public domain. This maybe what Wolff is uncomfortable with.

    So if we say Toto has a situation where their star driver is losing or has lost faith in his engineers, how does he deal with that situation? Does he fire his star driver? or does he change his star driver's engineers to ensure he gets the best performance from him? I think Toto's comments reveals that Mercedes have a bigger internal problem besides the rivalry between Hamilton and Rosberg. It also reveals the Hamilton's drop of performance since Singapore is more than just changes to the car. It hints at operational issues on the Hamilton side of that garage that may underline the dramatic loss of form witnessed in Hamilton.

    If this is the case, we could speculate that Mercedes' view on approach to the season has moved from that of Hamilton, there may be a misalignment that could result in Hamilton being dropped from the team. This of course would depend largely on what the Mercedes aspiration is. We can assume that they would still want to win both championships in Hamilton's absence if they decide to go in this direction. And they would need to retain Rosberg for his experience within the team and how close he was able to get to Hamilton. And they are hoping that Ferrari turn up with a car that is still less competitive to the Mercedes in 2016. And Rosberg can keep it together for the entire season without mistakes to secure both championships by the end of the 2016 season. This, l think would be an unneccessary risk, and l am not implying that Rosberg is unable to win a driver championship with the Mercedes. But objectively, a proven driver would be the way to go and parity status aside. l think it is time for Mercedes to wake up to the fact that, they cannot have parity status between a triple world champion and a driver yet to win a driver title, it is simply ridiculous. They need to win two more championships to match Redbull at least for the Mercedes return to F1 to achieve a status of a great modern day F1 team.

    As far as dropping Rosberg is concerned, l don't see the point. They have a dream driver lineup. They need a driver that can deliver if the other driver is not. Having a driver that can push Hamilton, beat him on occasions or be within a tenth of Hamilton is where Rosberg is indispensible. A change of one of their driver lineup would mean having someone who would be learning the Mercedes in their first yeas hence would most likely be about half a second down from Hamilton or Rosberg, which would put Vettel closer to the hunt for the title championship. This is a very risky proposition. My guess is they would not change a winning formular, but tweak it by keeping both their drivers but change their internal composition. I agree with you that equal status may be thrown out as it is not working and distracting for the team. I also agree that a triple world champion is not going to be made a number 2 driver within Mercedes. Which begs the question, how is Rosberg going to react to a number 2 status?
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 5th December 2015 at 20:35.

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