Red Bull hit out at Renault - again

[The Black Knight]

Yes that is in the current regulations.

Well none of Mercedes customers were using the updated Mercedes spec Engine in Monza.

[The Black Knight]

Interesting indeed. It would be hard to believe that the FIA would allow RBR to leave just for the want of an engine deal.

Isn't there a case that an engine supplier must be able to supply a certain number of teams if called upon to do so?

Four I believe (can't be 100% certain) but Mercedes already do that so I can't see any obligation for them to provide an extra Engine to RBR.

[Mark]

Four does ring a bell, but it's hard to know as these things change semi-regularly.

As for it being the same spec, I don't think there is a rule as such, but as a supplier you get strength through running several teams, more data and the likes considering the lack of testing. So they are going to be wanting to run their 'best' design in all the teams they are supplying.

At the moment we need Honda to actually pull their finger out at get good. So they can start supplying the likes of three teams rather than just McLaren. But knowing Honda they'll withdraw - again.

[AndyL]

As for it being the same spec, I don't think there is a rule as such, but as a supplier you get strength through running several teams, more data and the likes considering the lack of testing. So they are going to be wanting to run their 'best' design in all the teams they are supplying.

There is a rule in Sporting regs Appendix 4:

2. A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit.

I think the original meaning of this was that all customers would get the same engines. But once the Ferrari interpretation was accepted, and the idea of homologating the engines in February for the whole year was dropped, I guess this rule was effectively sidestepped.

[Bagwan]

A new spec can mean changes to which the individual customers have to adapt .

This sets up a natural time lag for the manufacturer .

[Jag_Warrior]

A new spec can mean changes to which the individual customers have to adapt .

This sets up a natural time lag for the manufacturer .

That sounds reasonable.

Also, other than limited supply, I have no idea what the reason was for Mercedes not offering the new engine to its customer teams. But I did hear on the qualifying broadcast that a different fuel formulation would be necessary for optimal performance. So that's something else. How much guidance comes from Mercedes or Petronas on fuel formulation? Not all of the Mercedes supplied teams run Petronas fuel and lubricants. Lotus still runs Total/Elf, correct? When McLaren was running the Merc last year, they used Exxon/Mobil products, right? I don't know who Williams uses. But now I wonder how much of the performance deficit comes down to fuel, lubricants and custom, optimized engine settings.

[Mia 01]

Mercedes is the new Ferrari, they use every thrick in the book and some Moore.

[Bagwan]

I would imagine you'd get some pretty reasonable advice on lubricants and fuel , but maybe not quite optimum .

I think , though , that making a few , even minor adjustments to , say , where a hose is mounted , could easily be justified by some technical talk about flow or cooling , but really be just a way to slow the others down , as they would be forced at times , to re-package .
You could make a mounting point where you know you have something solid but the others don't .

There's all kinds of ways you could screw with them to keep them behind , asking for the old spec .

[The Black Knight]

Four I believe (can't be 100% certain) but Mercedes already do that so I can't see any obligation for them to provide an extra Engine to RBR.

Correction the number is actually three, not four, but Mercedes had to receive special dispensation from the FIA last year to supply a fourth Engine.

Mercedes are now in talks with Manor to provide them Mercedes engines next year. Manor currently use last years Ferrari Engine, so this would represent a massive boost for them if they could get it. I'd also imagine that it would put them ahead of the McLarens on track

Following for source:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120711

So, to me, this looks like RBR and STR will indeed use Ferrari Engines next year and Manor Mercedes. Whether it will be the latest one Engine spec for those teams remains to be seen.

[Bezza]

I'm getting quite dispondent of what comes across as a "Mercedes-controlled" F1 at the moment.

Mercedes have the best chassis and engine combination.

They supply engines to Williams, Force India and Lotus too.

Williams have a very good chassis but it is evident they are not getting the highest spec Mercedes engine to allow them to compete with Mercedes. And whenever they have had a chance to win – Austria 2014, Britain 2015 – they have essentially ignored the fight for the win.

Red Bull need a better engine for them to compete again, but Mercedes won’t give them even a second-rate one like the Williams!



When will Mercedes realize that them winning all the time with ease is actually not good for themselves in the long run? They need competition. F1 needs competition. Why not supply Red Bull and have them mix it with them. They will still have Mercedes engines – surely that would enhance the reputation???

It is quite typically German what is going on at the moment. Win at absolutely all costs, even if means switch your TV off – which is what I did after about 15 laps of the Italian Grand Prix.