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  1. #21
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    There are old links between RBR and Ferrari...

  2. #22
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    It is pretty sure Renault PU is behind Mercedes and Ferrari. On power circuit like Canada both RBRs and STRs were struggling to get points, while they are more easily in the points on other circuits. And Red Bull had their best weekend at Monaco, where power unit counts less. Same tendency with McLaren - good at Monaco, where Honda's rubbishness doesn't matter that much. Nowhere in Canada.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koz View Post
    Williams won a race with Renault, they haven't with Mercedes. Can't blame Renault for a shitty car in 2013.
    Both Mclaren and RBR have shitty cars, can't blame it all on shitty engines.
    I think this engine switch argument applies to the new era from 2014 onwards. Doesn't matter, what was in 2013, 2012, because the V8 engines were pretty evenly matched. Maybe Mercedes had a slight horsepower advantage, which was evident at Monza, but it was too marginal to make a difference. The new era however...

    Red Bull chassis may not be great, but power unit is still the weaker link. Same in McLaren. Can't believe people are trying to turn the argument around just because they don't like Red Bull's PR.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jens View Post
    I think this engine switch argument applies to the new era from 2014 onwards.
    Exactly. So in which universe is it fair to say that Williams upped their pace since leaving Renault?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koz View Post
    Exactly. So in which universe is it fair to say that Williams upped their pace since leaving Renault?
    Well, ever since 2014 Williams has been top 3 in the constructors, which they weren't before.

    I think the point is that it was very important for 2014 to get the "right engines". And as we saw from 2014, while Mercedes was dominating, Williams, Force India and McLaren were all also in decent points. While Sauber, STR, Lotus, who were using "other customer engines", were further back.

    The decision to switch for Merc engines for 2014 was a very inspiring call by the Williams management. In contrast Maldonado's decision to leave Williams...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jens View Post
    The decision to switch for Merc engines for 2014 was a very inspiring call by the Williams management.
    I suspect that Toto Wolff, who owns some shares of Williams and whose wife is a test pilot at Williams, simply called Claire Williams in 2013 and passed her a confidential advise about the engine situation. "We're going to bet our whole farm on this engine", he probably said. He must have known how massively Mercedes over-invested in the engine development. Maldonado could have known about this too, but it's possible that some kind of conflict was already brewing between him and the team.
    Last edited by zako85; 12th July 2015 at 12:41.

  7. #27
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    I think Cyril Abiteboul had pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why the Renault & RBR relationship isn't working anymore in the interview in his article.

    http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/...-red-bull-spat

    To give Renault credit where it is due, they have kept their class throughout this whole affair in very different circumstances and been level throughout. I hope they leave RBR in the wind, buy their own team and win the championship. It's the best way to give the finger to RBR.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I think Cyril Abiteboul had pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why the Renault & RBR relationship isn't working anymore in the interview in his article.

    http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/...-red-bull-spat

    To give Renault credit where it is due, they have kept their class throughout this whole affair in very different circumstances and been level throughout. I hope they leave RBR in the wind, buy their own team and win the championship. It's the best way to give the finger to RBR.
    Yep, absolutely with you, it would serve them SO right. I think Renault will be too classy for that though and they will still honour their 2016 contract. I bet Red Bull might jump on board with Honda who could be decent by 2017.
    SPAM - Going off topic to give you the deals you don't want.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I think Cyril Abiteboul had pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why the Renault & RBR relationship isn't working anymore in the interview in his article.

    http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/...-red-bull-spat

    To give Renault credit where it is due, they have kept their class throughout this whole affair in very different circumstances and been level throughout. I hope they leave RBR in the wind, buy their own team and win the championship. It's the best way to give the finger to RBR.
    Renault may well be classy but I suspect they are running their engine budget on a shoestring. I can't stand RBR but I can understand their frustration with Renault (even though they should vent it behind closed doors). It does take a special something to design a second PU after four years of development that is less powerful, less reliable and less driveable than its predecessor. Nor is the rate of development anywhere near as aggressive as that over at Honda though at least the piston failures are a thing of the past.

    Ghosn is NOT a motorracing man. He will only invest in F1 if the success comes first and it shows it can pay its own way. If he can't see the numbers adding up then he won't do anything interesting. If the numbers don't work out Le Costcutter will cut costs the brutal way.

    Even the plans to acquire an F1 team are half assed. Ghosn understands that once a team is established and winning like RBR and Mercedes, the sponsorship and prize money pay for the team and maximises exposure while limiting expenditure. The problem is that I don't think he wants to invest what is needed to get both the PU and the chassis to the required level. Buying Lotus is dependent almost entirely on who shoulders the team's debt and maximising the amount of money the team is entitled to. At least Bernie is helping them by offering them a heritage bonus.

    For RBR I think its getting increasingly clear that if Renault's underinvestment carries on they'll even fall behind Honda. Sadly because they couldn't keep their mouths shut noone else will supply them. Karma on both sides I think.

  10. Likes: jens (7th August 2015)
  11. #30
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    I understand from that article that Renault would have liked Red Bull to invest in their engine program, since they themselves did not have the resources to match Mercedes.

    An interesting point, and maybe a fair one I think. Seems RBR want the same amount of benefit Merc enjoy from being a works team without doing any of the investing themselves, as in wanting their cake and eating it.

    As one of the careers advisers said, when I was doing a getting back into work program a few years ago, in a strong Wolverhampton accent, "yew git eowt wat yew puh'in".
    SPAM - Going off topic to give you the deals you don't want.

  12. Likes: The Black Knight (7th August 2015)

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