Mercedes W196 and the Third Car

[pcal226]

I had two random questions about the history of F1 regulations that I was hoping you guys could help me answer:

1.) First was about the Mercedes W196 "Type Monza" that raced in the mid-50's. As far as I know it was the only car to ever race in F1 with enclosed wheels. I was wondering if anyone knows whether or not there ever were other F1 cars with enclosed wheels. More importantly, I was wondering if anyone knew when open-wheeled cars became mandatory in F1. I had always assumed that open-wheeled cars was one of the basic regulations that had always existed in F1, but the W196 seems to contradict this.

2.) My second question was about third cars in F1. I know a few years ago Ferrari was talking about bringing third car entries back into F1. I was wondering when exactly third cars were banned in the first place. Like what year? I was also wondering what the deal with third cars was when they were legal. Were they eligible for manufacturers points or not? And if so, why didn't more teams enter them? Were teams limited to three cars or could they enter as many as they wanted (that managed to qualify of course)?

I've looked everywhere I could on the internet and here in the States books on F1 history are scarce. Any help would be great. Thanks.

[D-Type]

(1) Streamlining
Up to 1960 all enclosed bodies were permitted in Formula 1 and Formula 2 and over the years several appeared, not just the W196..

Mercedes W196 streamliner. There was not a "Type Monza" as such. Mercedes developed several variants of both streamliner and open wheeler with different wheelbases, inboard or outboard front brakes etc. to suit different tracks but they ended up running a mixture of types at each race, including streamliners and open-wheelers in the same race. In 1955 they tested at Monza a couple of months before the GP to decide what was best for the combined circuit. Then in the meantime the organisers resurfaced the track and when they came for practice they found the cars were no longer optimised. A panic ensued to raid the parts store at Stuttgart to quickly build up new cars (if I remember correctly they wanted medium wheelbase cars). All 4 cars that ran were different - I can't remember what the precise differences were. I suspect that "Type Monza" comes from a model maker's description, meaning "as raced at Monza"

Connaught The 1954 Connaught had a streamlined all-enclosed body. The team found it was costly to repair in the event of a minor accident. They also found that if the the one-piece body was off the car it was difficult to handle in the slightest and vulnerable to damage. They therefore developed a conventional open wheeled car. After Tony Brooks won the Syracuse Grand Prix this became known as the "Syracuse" model. Had Connaught had the resources of Daimler-Benz behind them, they might well have persevered with the streamliner.

Reims Specials
The Reims circuit with its long straights led to teams trying cars with streamlined bodies for the one race. Because it was just for one race, these were not fully developed and unsuccessful.

Maserati 250F This appeared at the 1956 French GP at Reims. It had a full width nose and sponsons between the wheels but the tops of the wheels were exposed. The throttle mechanism fouled the bodyworkso the throttle could not be opened fully, which rather defeated the objective. I don't think it raced. It was also tried at Monza and again I don't think it raced

Lancia-Ferrari This also appeared at Reims in 1956. It was similar to the Maserati except that the rear wheels were fully enclosed. It practised but didn't race

Vanwall A streamlined Vanwall appeared at the non-Championship Reims GP in 1957. The drivers, Roy Salvadori and Stuart Lewis-Evans were replacing regular drivers Stirling Moss and Tony Brooks who were not available. They had their hands full getting familiar with the Vanwall and when the streamliner had teething troubles it was put aside and they concentrated on the regular cars.

Cooper They made half-heated efforts with bolt-on panels in 1957 and a mix of Bobtail and Monaco sports car panels in 1960. Neither was particularly effective, the latter car exhibiting significant 'lift' on the straights. So they ran cars with regular bodies in the race on both occasions.
In 1955 Jack Brabham ran a car based on the 'Bobtail' sports car but with a rear-mounted Bristol engine. The only World Championship GP it ran in was the British GP. He also raced it in some minor F1 races and won the formule libre Australian Grand Prix.

Sports cars
In 1952-53 the World Championship was run for Formula 2 (2 litre) cars. German BMW-based specials, AFN and Veritas sports cars ran in some races, stripped of lights, passenger seats, spare wheels and other road equipment. In minor races several of the cars might be sports cars which fitted the capacity limits.

(2) Two man teams
This is difficult to answer as things have changed significantly over the 65 years of the World Championship.
In the fifties and sixties there was no limit on the number of cars a team could enter. The situation is further confused by the numerous private entries in addition to the 'works' cars. All cars with the same chassis/engine combination qualified for manufacturers' championship points, e.g. all Cooper-Climaxes could score points, but a Cooper-Maserati was considered to be a different make. But only the highest placed car of a make scored points. e.g. when Ferrari finished 1-2-3-4 in the 1961 British GP they only scored winner's points while the 5th placed Porsche scored 5th place points.
Following the success of Cooper with a 2 driver team in 1960 (albeit backed up by several privately entered cars) several teams moved towards a 2 driver format and this became the norm, although not mandated.
As FOCA gained more influence, they moved towards two way contracts - they guaranteed a full field to all race organisers and in turn guaranteed a full season to the teams. Eventually a two-car team was mandated in the late seventies to mid eighties - I'm not sure exactly when. At that time there were more team cars than start places so the lesser teams had to qualify (and at one time even pre-qualify) so top (or any) teams were not permitted to run a third car as it would displace one of the regular back of the field runners and prevent them earning start or prize money.
Recently as the number of teams has dwindled, there have been moves afoot to reintroduce third drivers to ensure a full 22 car field at all races.

If you want clarification on any points, just ask and one of us should be able to answer.

[FAL]

Everywhere on the internet? - except a very recent thread on here?

[D-Type]

Everywhere on the internet? - except a very recent thread on here?

Thanks FAL. I knew I had responded to a similar query but thought it was on another forum as a search for "W196" didn't turn it up. The earlier thread is here: http://www.motorsportforums.com/show...-Mercedes-W196.

Once I get my moderator functions restored I will merge the two threads (if I remember)

[pcal226]

Thanks for the info. Especially about the Mercedes. I'd seen videos of the Silver Arrows and always just assumed they were the only ones. Do you happen to know why the streamlined bodies were banned after 1960? Was it a safety issue, or just a way to differentiate them from sports cars?

Now that you mention it, I guess I knew that cars entered by privateers were eligible to score manufacturer points so I guess it only makes sense that third cars on factory teams would be as well. Still, I didn't know that only the top scorers were counted so thanks for that, it explains a lot. I'd still be interested to know what the exact years were in which privateers and third cars were banned if you ever come across that info.

I apologize for not searching through the forum thoroughly enough to see if my questions had been answered. When I said I looked "everywhere" I meant I googled it and wasn't able to come up with anything. Thanks for your help.

[D28]

You're right, this is not an easy question to answer. I believe the first Concord agreement arranged by Ecclestone and the organizers may have dealt with this issue. That was 1981, and a lot of the details were confidential. By looking at the entry lists we can say for sure 1977 included some 3 car entries. Both McLaren and Ferrari entered a 3rd car for Gilles Villeneuve in 1977; this prompted Lauda to leave Ferrari at Mosport, having clinched his 2nd Drivers title. I see 3 Lotus entries as late as the Dutch GP 1980 for Andretti, de Angelis and Mansell. Assuming all three are Team Lotus, this seems to be the last example of a 3 car attack. So my guess is the 1981 Concord agreement sealed a practice that was dying out anyway.

As for streamlining after 1960, I don't think it was banned so much as it had just not proved quicker; the examples D-type listed are from the 1950s. I believe faired in front wheels would have been permissible in the 1961 formula, but those cars had only 1.5 L engines and extra weight would be a factor. Also areodynamics, front lift were poorly understood concepts at the time.
If I see anything more conclusive I will post it.

[D28]

OK here is further evidence that 1981 was the year teams were limited to 2 cars. See this table for 1980
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Formula_One_season
compare to the same for 1981
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Formula_One_season

If you study the 81 table for Drivers and constructors you can see each team assigned numbers for 2 official cars, Tyrrell has #3 and #4 split among 4 different drivers depending on the race. The 80 table has 3 different numbers for three cars depending on how they entered them.

In 1980 Team Essex Lotus did enter # 43 for Mansell in 3 races, 1 he failed to qualify so they had 3 cars in 2 races. Austrian and Dutch GPs.

A statement at the top of 1981 table describes the new FIA Formula One World Championship, I am satisfied that is when the change was made.
I have found these Wiki tables accurate cross referenced with other sources.Hope this helps.

[inimitablestoo]

The last time a team entered three cars for a single Grand Prix was in 1985, when Renault added a car for Francois Hesnault, but strictly speaking it was a non-competitive entry (and not just because the underachieving Hesnault was driving). It was instead an onboard camera car, the first time such a thing had been seen in a Grand Prix.

Prior to that, Renault had also been the last team to run three cars competitively in one race, when a third car was added for Philippe Streiff at the 1984 finale in Portugal. But these were very much one-offs.

I do also remember that in 1993, after a 1992 season in which entries had tumbled from 32 (enough to require pre-qualifying) to 26 (just enough to make a full grid), the FIA allowed any team which lodged an application pre-season to enter a third car if the grid fell below 26 at any point. McLaren and Ligier were the only teams which did so but, when the grid did fall to 24 for the final two races, the third entries seemed to be forgotten. Michael Andretti had by this point left McLaren and Mika Hakkinen had been promoted in his place, so presumably they weren't that bothered, but I'm sure Ligier had intended to run Eric Bernard (still recuperating from an injury sustained at the '91 Japanese GP) and, for whatever reason, didn't. It would make sense that they were planning to run a third car, given the "abstract" Gitanes livery that appeared on Martin Brundle's car at the final two races that year, which presumably would have been run on the extra entry had it appeared. If anyone can fill in the details there, I'd be interested to know the full story.

[D-Type]

The 1961 Formula 1 regulations did ban all enveloping bodies. A wide nose and side sponsons were allowable, but not fairing in the wheels. The ban has been carried forward into every subsequent set of Formula 1 regulations.

I don't know the reasoning behind the ban. I suspect that it came about because stripped sports cars often ran in the 1500cc Formula 2 races, particularly the minor ones and in some minor non-Championship Formula 1 races. Possibly the FIA felt that they did not want sports cars running in races for cars complying with their premier formula. Another possible reason was that the 1961 regulations introduced a minimum weight, presumably on safety grounds to eliminate some of the flimsier cars, and as an all-enveloping body is potentially heavier there would be scope for reducing the weight and strength of the chassis and still meeting the minimum weight.

[D28]

The last time a team entered three cars for a single Grand Prix was in 1985, when Renault added a car for Francois Hesnault, but strictly speaking it was a non-competitive entry (and not just because the underachieving Hesnault was driving). It was instead an onboard camera car, the first time such a thing had been seen in a Grand Prix.

Very interesting. Further looking at the wiki tables confirms 4 GPs entered for Hesnault and 1 where he DNQ. Also confirmed is the 1 off for Streiff. this raises the question, if the general rules were set in 1981, why was an exception made for Renault? Or were they the only team interested in an extra car, obviously it did them no good and perhaps the others realized the returns weren't worth the effort?