The fuel flow meter and how it will affect this year's F1

[kfzmeister]

As to accuracy of fuel flow meters, I have to take the word of RBR over the FIA . After all, RBR have had nearly 4 years' experience with fuel flow meters: they had one secretly installed in Mark Webber's car for 3 years already!!!! :

You mean Seb's?

[Hawkmoon]

Red Bull are probably correct in that the FIA mandated sensor was problematic but they were either extremely stupid or extremely arrogant to not do something when warned by the FIA that they were in breach of the regulations.

Even if you think the rule makers are wrong you have to abide by their decisions. Argue about it later sure, but do as they say now or suffer the consequences.

[Valve Bounce]

The fuel flow rate limit is there to assure teams are not putting out more power than is allowed.

RB states that they got faulty readings during the weekend and took it upon themselves to install their own measuring device. They were warned multiple times to revert to the FIA metering device. They ignored those warnings and so were penalized.
Every other team had to use the same meter/ unit and "got on with it just fine."

Imo, RB were a little too arrogant in thinking this would fly. My question now is: Where, performance wise, are they really ranked?

Btw, both Ham and Seb had misfire issues not related to the device.

Performance wise, the discussion panel here in Chanel 10 involving former WDC Alan Jones, Mark Webber and that ex bike racer, Mercedes had the edge over Renault and it was something Renault had to attend to. Somehow, RBR insisted that they had already replaced one faulty FIA metering device during practice with another, and when they found the second device and reported this to the FIA, they were instructed to re-install the first "faulty" device. There appears to have been a lot more going on than just a straight forward refusal to obey FIA instructions. No doubt, all this will come out during the appeal in Paris and any subsequent court cases if this eventuates in a failed appeal. I can see this dragging on well into the season.

Your statement that every other team had to use the same meter and got on with it just fine may not be the case. Mercedes were exceeding fuel flow readings during the race (from teh FIA report) and were told to cut back, which they did. Maybe because they would have run out of fuel if they didn't, from Magnussen's orders 5 laps from race end, who really knows? In fact, RBR contend some teams ewre running without the fuel flow meters.
at this stage, nobody really knows what the exact issues are.

[Valve Bounce]

As to accuracy of fuel flow meters, I have to take the word of RBR over the FIA . After all, RBR have had nearly 4 years' experience with fuel flow meters: they had one secretly installed in Mark Webber's car for 3 years already!!!! :

You mean Seb's?

No! I mean Mark's. It would explain all the strange starts.

[Whyzars]

James Allen has a piece on the fuel flow rate. The max of 100kg/hr is measured at the rev limit of 10,500rpm and reduces with the revs in line with a formula.

Great article and a link sent me on to http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112975 on autosport which is a good one too.


Does James Allen actually provide an insight into the workings of F1 officialdom?

What do "...highly efficient down-sized road car"s have to do with F1?

If they made all these changes for a down sized road car then do we now have a down sized race car?


(Are there any opinions about whether the Celebrity Challenge Mazda 3's sounded beefier than the F1 cars seeing as they're now from the same automotive family? )



Interesting that the autosport article says that:

Even if the sensor fails it is still possible to calculate the fuel flow via readings from the fuel pressure and injector timings. This is not as accurate as the sensor, but does at least provide a reserve option.

They need to have multiple sensors installed. Go with the reserve option and give Ricciardo back his second place. Please.

I'm going out now to buy a can of Red Bull.

[kfzmeister]

Your statement that every other team had to use the same meter and got on with it just fine may not be the case. Mercedes were exceeding fuel flow readings during the race (from teh FIA report) and were told to cut back, which they did. Maybe because they would have run out of fuel if they didn't, from Magnussen's orders 5 laps from race end, who really knows? In fact, RBR contend some teams ewre running without the fuel flow meters.
at this stage, nobody really knows what the exact issues are.

Not my statement, but rather Charlie Whiting's. I haven't read anywhere that others had issues.

[Valve Bounce]

Just read the Autosport report linked by whyzars; and this is the critical sentence: "The challenge has been to ensure these sensors are both accurate and reliable, with several teams complaining of deficiencies in both areas over the Australian GP weekend".

Now if RBR can produce reports to back up this claim, then the FIA would have a lot of answering to account for.

There are other ways of limiting power produced by a turbocharged car: limit the turbo pressure with a pressure pop off valve.

Why have turbo and those energy recovery doodads on an F1 car is beyond my comprehension. Maybe it's time to bring back Max!! He'd whip this lot into shape!!

[Robinho]

Autosport a reporting that several teams had issues with the devices, and subsequently complied with the FIA's advice. RB were the only ones who tried to go in alone, despite the warnings there was a zero tolerance policy on the fuel rules

[Whyzars]

Just read the Autosport report linked by whyzars; and this is the critical sentence: "The challenge has been to ensure these sensors are both accurate and reliable, with several teams complaining of deficiencies in both areas over the Australian GP weekend".

Now if RBR can produce reports to back up this claim, then the FIA would have a lot of answering to account for.

We're watching a slow motion p*ssing contest.

Red Bull could show they weren't cheating, that they were flowing less fuel. That's not what they got pinged for is it?

Read what was on the JA site, its about a potential technology revolution!!!! Trying to save the world maybe?

A team that is trying to win a race is not playing the new game the way they are supposed to. What Red Bull should've done is used less fuel because in the end, that is the goal. Every carbon atom is sacred, every carbon atom is good (queue Monte Python).

There are other ways of limiting power produced by a turbocharged car: limit the turbo pressure with a pressure pop off valve.

Why have turbo and those energy recovery doodads on an F1 car is beyond my comprehension. Maybe it's time to bring back Max!! He'd whip this lot into shape!!

If you mean blow off valves, they are only for boost air pressure. This issue is fuel flow and regulated fuel pressure. The teams know to the pooftenth of a millilitre how much fuel is in each squirt. The sensor is about the scrutineers receiving the same signal from all teams and not relying on teams telling them the truth. Maybe they've been deceived in the past.

Max would shove their down sized road cars where the sun don't shine. I wouldn't like to guess at what he'd be wearing at the time though.

Its nice that he is remembered.

[kfzmeister]

It makes sense to me. FIA has mandated the Fuel flow sensor to ensure that the fuel flow is limited. The idea is to conserve fuel and to use this same area as a way of limiting HP.
The sensors are built by a company and another company oversees the calibration. The way that flow is measured is via ultra sonic frequency and there are peaks and valleys. Teams have reported too much variance in those readings/ spikes. The FIA has recognized this and made some changes in the the way they sample the readings (slowed down the time frame).
During the weekend, teams including Mercedes, have been informed that their sample readings are not within parameters and have been told to "dial back" their performance. They, and others i assume, have complied.
Red Bull did not. Over the weekend, they had enough time to comply.
Red Bull states that they can prove that they complied via their own measuring device, yet this is not the issue here. They decided to circumvent the rules, and therein lies the problem.
And, this is why i believe: 1. It is right to disqualify Daniel (and he does know what his team is doing at all times) 2. RB should/ will not win back their Australia points/ position.