Malaysian Boeing 777 missing

[Big Ben]

Do we still believe that there aren't russians soldiers sent from russia to help the poor helpless oppressed russians from ukraine? If they have this fancy systems they have the people to operate them. These rebels are way too efficient to actually believe they are nothing but average Ivans who quit their jobs, grabbed the household's kalashnikov and went to fight the oppressors.

[airshifter]

I can't say about the system in question, but having been around some of the smaller systems in the military, part of what makes them so good is often ease of operation. On shorter range fire and forget type systems it really doesn't take much work on the user end. You acquire a target and let it go. I would imagine it's similar on long range systems, as the missile must really do the homing and tracking work mostly in flight.

The majority of military hardware is designed to be user friendly. They know people are dealing with fatigue, stress, crap weather, etc often during use, and have to consider all those factors when they design things.

[Starter]

I can't say about the system in question, but having been around some of the smaller systems in the military, part of what makes them so good is often ease of operation. On shorter range fire and forget type systems it really doesn't take much work on the user end. You acquire a target and let it go. I would imagine it's similar on long range systems, as the missile must really do the homing and tracking work mostly in flight.

The majority of military hardware is designed to be user friendly. They know people are dealing with fatigue, stress, crap weather, etc often during use, and have to consider all those factors when they design things.

This is correct. The use of modern weapon systems, except for the most sophisticated, is fairly easy and these should be also. It's the long term maintenance of the weapons which require training and expertise.

I can imagine the Russian "advisers" saying the Russian equivalent of "Oh crap, you've really screwed the pooch." when they realized what had been done.

[driveace]

This looks like Russia had it's hand in it !
Obama will have some big decisions to make on this issue,could it lead to another cold war ?

[Mark]

Do we still believe that there aren't russians soldiers sent from russia to help the poor helpless oppressed russians from ukraine? .

I would be amazed if there weren't Russian special forces in Ukraine.

It does look like the 'rebels' have gotten a bit trigger happy and got carried away.

[Malbec]

This is correct. The use of modern weapon systems, except for the most sophisticated, is fairly easy and these should be also. It's the long term maintenance of the weapons which require training and expertise.

I can imagine the Russian "advisers" saying the Russian equivalent of "Oh crap, you've really screwed the pooch." when they realized what had been done.

Setting the launcher up, locking it on a target and firing the missile might be easy but identifying civilians from military, friend from foe would require further equipment and a lot more expertise. That clearly wasn't present.

Whether the Russians supplied their friends with the launchers or whether they were captured by the rebels from the Ukrainians, the fact that they were firing at targets 30,000 ft and above without bothering to identify them whilst airliners were still routed over the area meant this was a disaster waiting to happen. Clearly someone in the group coordinating the rebels from Moscow had a few brain cells missing when they okayed the blind targeting of high flying aircraft in the region, they would have known that airliners were in the area because they would have gone on to fly over Russian territory later (real Russian that is, not seized). Given that airliners flying east over this region were fast approaching Russian airspace they could well have been in contact with Russian ATC as they were shot down.

Wars have started over less. At the very least its time for Putin to quit playing in Eastern Ukraine and get his guys out of there.

[driveace]

There is film on TV of the suspected Rocket Launcher being spirited back across the border to Russia,and also recording on public media site of a guy admitting just shot down a plane ,that recording has now been removed ,but the Americans have the guys name.Can the Americans arrest this guy before the Russians eliminate him ?

[Storm]

^well the most likely answer to that is No.
Also even if it is proved that Soviet..err Russian army was behind all this, does anybody really have the guts,time and money to go to war on this? Because getting an apology from them or imposing sanctions or a UN reprimand aren't real solutions to the innocent people who actually died in this.

[zako85]

There is film on TV of the suspected Rocket Launcher being spirited back across the border to Russia

The video you mention was displayed on major news channels (BBC world news I think) and it was discussed here:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-...hat-1607521886

Personally, I do not consider this video as an evidence of any kind. Has anyone so far proved where and when exactly was this video filmed? Where was the vehicle headed? In the middle of an extremely tense information war fought between Ukraine and Russia, I'd take it with a grain of salt, specially since Ukrainians seems to have provided the video to TV channels with comment "vehicles heading back to Russia" as if they already have a proof that the vehicles came from Russia to begin with. Do you know that Ukraine also owns the same kinds of missile systems? And by the way, the rebels have claimed weeks ago that they captured Buk missile system from _Ukrainian_ air defense. So far this video is not a proof of a Russian complicity but one data point. If there were a few more videos of the same incident showing yes this vehicle was _certainly_ heading into Russia, then that would be a pretty damning evidence.

also recording on public media site of a guy admitting just shot down a plane ,that recording has now been removed ,but the Americans have the guys name.Can the Americans arrest this guy before the Russians eliminate him ?

Yes, the recorded did sound pretty damning to me. However, what authority do the Americans have to arrest this guy? Perhaps he visits Las Vegas on weekends? And on what grounds? Have any American laws been broken?

[Starter]

Personally, I do not consider this video as an evidence of any kind. Has anyone so far proved where and when exactly was this video filmed? Where was the vehicle headed? In the middle of an extremely tense information war fought between Ukraine and Russia, I'd take it with a grain of salt, specially since Ukrainians seems to have provided the video to TV channels with comment "vehicles heading back to Russia" as if they already have a proof that the vehicles came from Russia to begin with. Do you know that Ukraine also owns the same kinds of missile systems? And by the way, the rebels have claimed weeks ago that they captured Buk missile system from _Ukrainian_ air defense. So far this video is not a proof of a Russian complicity but one data point. If there were a few more videos of the same incident showing yes this vehicle was _certainly_ heading into Russia, then that would be a pretty damning evidence.

Good points

Yes, the recorded did sound pretty damning to me. However, what authority do the Americans have to arrest this guy? Perhaps he visits Las Vegas on weekends? And on what grounds? Have any American laws been broken?

America has no role in this, unless asked by NATO which we do have a responsibility to support. And you are correct, no American laws were broken. The various European countries seem loathe to take any real action as they don't want to be cut off from Russian gas with winter three or four months away. Let them deal with it. Although the parallels with the apeasement leading up to WWll are hard to ignore.