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  1. #81
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maui J. View Post
    Yeah, it's a bit like digital photography. It never took off... the quality was crap and people loved paying for film and processing so much they rejected it.
    That's not exactly a good comparison because unlike digital photography which got widespread naturally the current electric car mania is driven purely by political decision. I'm not saying it's wrong from a long-term perspective but the scale of the change especially in terms of necessary massive investments into the infrastructure make it something completely different.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  2. #82
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarek Z View Post
    Yes. Maybe that's why people lost interest in photos and music.
    There are far less viewers of online photo galleries than it used to be 10-15 years ago.
    And there are much less music sold nowadays than in the past.
    Well today we have things called Instagram and Spotify instead of watching "online galleries" or buying CD's...I'm sure photos and music are consumed today all channels counting more than ever. Anyway, this is highly off topic already.

  3. Likes: cali (24th August 2019),Maui J. (23rd August 2019)
  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sulland View Post
    That might be correct, but for normal road use, give them a chance, they will surprize you.

    Here in Norway they are heavy subsidiced. None of the strage fees put on the price when you buy it new, and no VAT on E-Cars
    On a normal 115 hp Golf vs e-Golf, the e-Golf et aprox 12 000 euro less tax/fees.
    A normal petrol 115 hp Golf cost aprox 33 000 euro as a startprice.

    More advantages: No yearly fees, can drive in the bus-lane, you can park them for free a lot of places, you do not have to pay on toll roads, low maintenence costs, very little noise, cheap insurance.

    I drive 120 km (2x60) each day to work. If i were to use my old diesel car, that would cost me aprox 6000 euro only in diesel.
    I have a small e-Up! as a commuter car. Charge it at home for aprox 8 euro a month, and charge it for free at the workplace. All in all a very good deal, both for me and the environment!

    So now we have 3 electric cars in the household, and we have saved, and continue to save a lot of money!
    as i said. people buy them because their government forces them to, not because they want to.


    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Western progaganda only? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ch...ion-2019-05-14

    Manufacturers not truly interested in electric cars? https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/13...electric-cars/
    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    Currently in most of the world, electric cars do no cost the same as petrol ones. I wrote when they actually do. People buy them, for the stated reasons.

    WRC is basically a Europe-centric series (it even says in the rules that teams have to be based in Europe), the wast majority of cars is not sold in europe. But in countries like India or Indonesia, South America etc and are typically massively tuned down cheap older generation stuff.

    Just looking at what car manufacturers actually invest in and develop right now shows you the majority is electric or hybrid. That being Toyota and VW who are the biggest car companies worldwide. That totally doesn't mean everyone will start driving electric tomorrow, but the trend is there.

    Anyway talking about "propaganda" is the best way to stop any discussion.
    everyone is free to believe what he thinks is right, but the numbers don't lie.
    85 million cars on petrol or diesel sold. 1,5 million cars on electricity.

    manufacturers hardly sell any electric cars outside country's where those are not extremely advantaged by government intervention in the market.
    people don't buy them, so manufacturers don't want to build them.

    if it wasn't for the ridiculous rules the EU and some western countries try to enforce, no big manufacturer would even bother to make a decent investment in electric cars. they only do it because the green lobby has a lot of influence in brussels and enforces them to get their average co2 emissions below something what is technically possible. it's politics, not economics.

  5. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sulland View Post
    That might be correct, but for normal road use, give them a chance, they will surprize you.

    Here in Norway they are heavy subsidiced.
    It Norway, one of the richest state in the world, with unlimited electric production and enormous government subsidies. In the rest of the EU and world situation is different (thanks god...), for example in Slovenia when purchasing a new E-car (pure electric driven!) you can get 7.500 Ä subsidies. But the state officials already stated that in the future this amount will shrink due to more E-cars sold. Fair enough, because new internal combustion engines with the latest Euro-6d norm are already almost without emissions. So new IC cars are no worry for the climate changes...
    Ok, enough of this issue, let's concentrate on topic (and who will be the second from the manufactures who will join Opel....).

  6. #85
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    Cars have always played a role not worth mentioning in climate changes. Question is the air quality for people.

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    ...necessary massive investments into the infrastructure...
    Well, that infrastructure exist and it's a lot more widespread that the distribution of fossil fuels. It started over 100 years ago.
    Can you refill your petrol tank at home? But you can recharge your EV at home.

    Sure long distance recharge stations need investment, but as it stands most EVs are for short distance city hops and so its a no brainer to plug in and charge overnight at home just like your phone.

  8. #87
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denkimi View Post
    if it wasn't for the ridiculous rules the EU and some western countries try to enforce, no big manufacturer would even bother to make a decent investment in electric cars. they only do it because the green lobby has a lot of influence in brussels and enforces them to get their average co2 emissions below something what is technically possible. it's politics, not economics.
    Besides the green lobby in western countries, the major political motivation actually came from China. It was them who decided to make battery powered EVís the new automotive trend, mostly as a way to escape from western tech dependence and also to reduce oil imports.

    To keep their slice on the huge Chinese market, western manus were forced to enter into EVís race and managed to use the green lobby influence to spread it through the rest of the world, making current EVís to look as the perfect solution for transportation pollution issues.

    But theyíre not: 1 in 2 EVís worldwide is sold in China and the electric source mix there is based on coal (70%) as itís in many other countries; considering all the manufacturing process and their electricity source, current EVís can globaly became a even bigger threat to Earth warming. Thatís what EVís propaganda isnít telling us.

    I truly believe sooner or later people will realize all this and ask for a real eco friendly tech, which already exists but is still underdeveloped: hydrogen powered EVís. Untill we get there it would be wiser to trust in the hard work engineers kept doing to make ICE cars more efficient and less polluant.

    Thatís why FIA choice for mild Hybrid tech on 2022 WRC cars should be praised; Rally will manage to skip unsuited battery powered EVís, while wainting for the Hydrogen ones to be available in the long term.

    Sorry for the long OT post and here some interesting links:
    https://chineseclimatepolicy.energyp...ctric-vehicles
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-is-the-future
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/24/c...l-warming.html
    Last edited by Rally Power; 24th August 2019 at 09:40.
    Rally addict since 1982

  9. #88
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maui J. View Post
    Well, that infrastructure exist and it's a lot more widespread that the distribution of fossil fuels. It started over 100 years ago.
    Can you refill your petrol tank at home? But you can recharge your EV at home.

    Sure long distance recharge stations need investment, but as it stands most EVs are for short distance city hops and so its a no brainer to plug in and charge overnight at home just like your phone.
    No, it does not exist. The current infrastructure is able to support millions or billions of combustion cars but only a much smaller number of EVs. It's virtually impossible to replace the combustion cars with EVs without building a new infrastructure especially in big cities. What you say absolutely doesn't apply for city blocks of flats with hundreds of cars at every house.

    It also doesn't exist on motorways. If you replace the current combustion traffic with EV the motorways are going to collapse because the recharging capacity is laughable compared to the traffic density. In fact due to the time needed to recharge you need many more recharging stations than petrol stations to keep the same traffic density running.

    That's why new infrastructure has to be built, needs billions of investments and will take years to be built. But a massive spread of EVs is impossible without that.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  10. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maui J. View Post
    Well, that infrastructure exist and it's a lot more widespread that the distribution of fossil fuels. It started over 100 years ago.
    Can you refill your petrol tank at home? But you can recharge your EV at home.

    Sure long distance recharge stations need investment, but as it stands most EVs are for short distance city hops and so its a no brainer to plug in and charge overnight at home just like your phone.
    Don`t compare lightbulbs and washing machines to 3phase industrial grids.

  11. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maui J. View Post

    Sure long distance recharge stations need investment, but as it stands most EVs are for short distance city hops and so its a no brainer to plug in and charge overnight at home just like your phone.
    And for a family with teenagers all whom have their own vehicles and no off street parking just imagine all those extension leads out on the footpath and the household voltage drop with household requirements and when mother is trying to prepare a meal.
    Things happen for reasons, not excuses.

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