Situation in Ukraine

[steveaki13]

It is beginning to seem to me, that Russia has been sending in the guys who are taking hold of TV stations and public buildings.

I mean when you see those guys. They are fully kitted out with uniforms, guns and stuff which normal rebels don't have. Now after these guys taking hold of area's in Crimea, Russia have there Army waiting at the border.

It looks to me folks like Russia has infiltrated Crimea with the idea of taking it back with a full blown invasion.

I know its hard to believe these days that these things could happen, but looking at the situation its looking bad.

Just shows you never know what is going to happen tomorrow.

A week ago, I would not think there was a risk of Russia returning to its old ways, but it appears to be a planned operation.

In todays world where everything seems so settled and sure, we now have a very worrying situation. Not helped by the treaty that the US, UK & others have signed in the past stating they will take action should Russia get involved anywhere.

Might have seemed like a good idea at the time, but when something like this happens its more worrying. I know it probably wont come to it. But if it ever got to War point, no one can risk fighting Russia these days.

What do you guys think?

[zako85]

I am personally kind of sick of seeing the big stand-off surrounding Ukrainian politics. This has been going on for years. For more than a decade, Ukraine has been the side of a covert proxy war between NATO (on political/military side), EU (on political/economic side) and Russia. For example, the foreign funding and advising for the 2004 Orange Revolution are well documented, as well as the Russian influence through TV and by other means. It would be very hypocritical to say that Russia is right or wrong without admitting the complexity of the rest of this conflict. There are plenty of reasons to blame every side:

1) Ukraine: damn it, none of this would have happened if you could just get your house in order. Your politicians are just as inept and corrupt as Russians in the 90s (Russians are still corrupt today, but at least they get at least _something_ done). Your military is a joke. Your economy is a joke. You're in need of an immediate 15 billion bailout. You are Greece v2.0. Of course, under such conditions, the hawks are going to be circling over your half-dead body. Keep the tabs on your neo-Nazi groups. Practice the democratic rule, not the rule of Maidan mob. Also realize that your political system cannot adequately accommodate the diversity of your population. Let people elect their governors locally, and let people use Russian as the second official language in the regions where they want to. Set up your republic as a federation, and most of your internal political conflicts will go away.

2. West: Encouraging Ukraine to join NATO is reckless as Russia will never accept NATO in Kiev. Don't embolden politicians who are clearly anti-Russian. If you want to help Ukraine, then help and encourage those politicians who want to fight corruption and incompetence, instead of simply playing on the natural divisions within the Ukrainian society. Your puppet president Yuschenko was a demagogue and an inept politician, and that's why he lost his re-election.

3. Russia: Stop encouraging Ukraine's east for an open rebellion. Invading and annexing territory of a European country seems pretty radical in 21st century. I understand the feeling of injustice after seeing predominantly Russian Crimea assigned to Ukraine, but peaceful means could have been exploited first. After this act, the rest of the world will merely tolerate you because they still need to do business with you. And if you invade, then take the credit for it, instead of saying that "local people's militias" did it. And, your puppet president Yanukovich was a corrupt and inept son of a mother, and that's why he was overthrown. (At least Putin flies in fighter jets and looks good shirtless, but what has Yanukovich got?)

[Rollo]

1) Ukraine: damn it, none of this would have happened if you could just get your house in order. Your politicians are just as inept and corrupt as Russians in the 90s (Russians are still corrupt today, but at least they get at least _something_ done). Your military is a joke. Your economy is a joke. You're in need of an immediate 15 billion bailout. You are Greece v2.0. Of course, under such conditions, the hawks are going to be circling over your half-dead body. Keep the tabs on your neo-Nazi groups. Practice the democratic rule, not the rule of Maidan mob. Also realize that your political system cannot adequately accommodate the diversity of your population. Let people elect their governors locally, and let people use Russian as the second official language in the regions where they want to. Set up your republic as a federation, and most of your internal political conflicts will go away.

Question. To what degree was the current situation caused by the businessmen and oligarchs who inherited power as a result of the breakup of the USSR?

Take the issue of gas. People need it to keep their boilers running. The Ukrainian Government couldn't really make people pay a market price for it because wages were still incredibly depressed; as such, the government effectively subsidized peoples' gas bills to the tune of 17% of GDP.

Do you blame the for the decisions taken in either Moscow or Kiev? And to what degree, are the billionaires who actually control capital of Russia and the Ukraine from Londongrad SW3 to blame?

[Rollo]

.

2. West: Encouraging Ukraine to join NATO is reckless as Russia will never accept NATO in Kiev. Don't embolden politicians who are clearly anti-Russian. If you want to help Ukraine, then help and encourage those politicians who want to fight corruption and incompetence, instead of simply playing on the natural divisions within the Ukrainian society. Your puppet president Yuschenko was a demagogue and an inept politician, and that's why he lost his re-election.

Do you not believe in the sovereignty of a nation?

[zako85]

Do you not believe in the sovereignty of a nation?

Considering that you post this as a reply to my remark about the relationship of Ukraine with NATO, I think you haven't read my reply to Starter about Ukraine's NATO prospects just one above. And yes, I believe in sovereignty of a nation, but not always when it's a half failed chaotic nation that's being pushed by very much stronger special interests from abroad. Without the 800 pound NATO gorilla trying to muscle in by shamelessly exploiting the ethnic divisions in the Ukrainian society, Ukraine's sovereignty would not have been in question. Here in America, they require that kids study about tolerance in high schools and colleges. But what do they do in Ukraine? Trying to incite a new Balkan style ethnic warfare? Sovereign nation or not, bringing a strong foreign backed alliance to its neighbors gates is a very hostile and reckless act and Russia will respond, and very strongly. I think what we see in Crimea is only a demonstration. The hawks and neocons in Washington and Brussels say they want to bring NATO to Ukraine because they want to defend a weak but "freedom-loving democracy" (see their videos below) in the face of Russian aggression. However, in reality, what they want is to bring the NATO air bases, nukes and, missile defense right to Russia's border. That's what it's all about. Russia will never accept this, not only because of security reasons, but also because of a perceived threat of the Western take over of the very land where the Russian civilization formed originally in the Kievan Rus in 10-12th centuries.

Moreover, bringing NATO into Ukraine is an unpopular and a divisive decision even within Ukraine. It's not even clear if a true democratic process would even allow this. South-Eastern Ukraine is populated by Russian-speaking Ukrainians or outright Russians most of whom see no threat from Russia. In fact, they are very idea of being a "NATO member" will be quite enraging to them. The day after a air base opens in Ukraine, there will be a mob of angry people outside the gates throwing rotten produce.

Here are some cool fresh youtube videos from the freedom loving Ukraine under the new pro-western government that strives to emulate the western liberal democratic values at home. Some of this stuff is both sad and hilarious. Why don't they run this on CNN?

A mob of protesters (almost certainly part of well organized radical militant youths who have filled Kiev) attack their own unarmed Ukrainian police on the streets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TNGxBfMg5k

Watching this makes me chuckle at the remarks of those who said that the popular protests in Ukraine that ousted the president were just a bunch of random peaceful guys being forced to defend against police. The extent the participation of far right wing and neo-fascist activists on the Maidan is becoming clear with each day.

A Ukrainian TV boss is beaten up in his office and forced to resign by Ukrainian MPs (!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5GeBpZ5VHY

Later they tried to delete the video, while some Ukrainian bloggers suggest that rights and liberties may have to be suspected sometimes because the country is at war. One of the guys doing the beating belongs to some kind of "Freedom of Speech Committee". The punishment was for transmitting Putin's speech from Kremlin days ago.

Video: A notorious far right activist Muzychko attacks prosecutor's office in Rovno (oldie, but still a goodie)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-radical-a...rosecutor-080/


The right wing militias who now rule on the streets of Ukraine:

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/

[Starter]

..... And yes, I believe in sovereignty of a nation, but not always when it's a half failed chaotic nation that's being pushed by very much stronger special interests from abroad. .....

Oh, I think I get it. You mean like Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya, the two Congos, Syria and the Central African Republic just to name some of the first ones that come to mind. Not all are prime players as proxies for other countries but all most definitely qualify as "failed chaotic nations". So I should assume that all are ripe for picking by any neighbor who wishes to take over? All of those countries also have citizens of their neighbors living in them, so they are prime places to be "Putined".

[zako85]

Oh, I think I get it. You mean like Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya, the two Congos, Syria and the Central African Republic just to name some of the first ones that come to mind. Not all are prime players as proxies for other countries but all most definitely qualify as "failed chaotic nations". So I should assume that all are ripe for picking by any neighbor who wishes to take over? All of those countries also have citizens of their neighbors living in them, so they are prime places to be "Putined".

That's right. In that part of world, the weak will always be taken advantage of. It may be morally wrong, but it's part of human nature, or as some people would say, simple realpolitik. If Ukraine wants to move forward, its people and politicians coming from all sorts of ends of spectrum should say we are one people and we will work together towards a common goal. But instead, the center stage of politics is dominated by populist and highly divisive demagogues from extreme fringes of the politics and society, and most are just pawns in the hands of Ukrainian oligarch class. Here is another fresh video from Ukrainian Rada:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7-nwKa4DlY

and a 10 years old but still quite relevant commentary from the contributors of now dead English language exile.ru:

http://exiledonline.com/ukraine-the-gogolean-bordello/

[Roamy]

Do you not believe in the sovereignty of a nation?

do you not believe they are able to vote?? Plus they are a sovereign nation as a result of the vote

[Markadmin]

The annexing of Crimea will only hasten Kiev's desire to make alliances with the West. It's been shown that Russia is no friend of Ukraine.

[Mark]

Now that the annexation is complete. At what point do the maps get redrawn? Or do they ever?