Nelson Mandela RIP

[odykas]

For sure, a great personality.

RIP

[Daniel]

The worlds best loved terrorist is dead. You'll excuse me for not shedding a tear.

Lol, not surprised to see you're still as bitter as ever. Or that you're the kind of person who would bend over to your oppressors and let them f**k you in the ass. Fortunately, some people, like Mr Mandela, never saw it that way.

I think you should get off your high kangaroo webberf1

Australia has done truly horrible things to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

They continue to be some of the most disadvantaged people in the first world

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=cr&ei= ... ustralians

In my experience of living in Australia I found it to be a massively arrogant country which is happy to take swipes at other countries and gloss over its own imperfections. Yes Apartheid was massively wrong, but Australia didn't really treat its indigenous people any better and still treats them like crap.

Read the statistics on sexual violence in South Africa and you'll realise that South Africa isn't the rainbow nation that people think it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_vio ... uth_Africa

One woman is raped every 36 seconds. Think about that..... 2 or 3 women were raped in SA while you read this post. Don't pretend that Mandela took South Africa from a place where whites crapped on blacks to a place where everyone lives in harmony. He was a great man and did a better job than a lot would do, but South Africa is still a place that most want to get away from.

[wedge]

He was a great man and did a better job than a lot would do, but South Africa is still a place that most want to get away from.

I had a liberal Saffer as a co-worker from about 10 years ago. He was saying how bad it could be to live, how great it was for blacks to get the same opportunities as whites but came at a price with affirmative action so he had to move back to the UK. Unbelievable when I first heard it.

[webberf1]

The worlds best loved terrorist is dead. You'll excuse me for not shedding a tear.

Lol, not surprised to see you're still as bitter as ever. Or that you're the kind of person who would bend over to your oppressors and let them f**k you in the ass. Fortunately, some people, like Mr Mandela, never saw it that way.

I think you should get off your high kangaroo webberf1

Australia has done truly horrible things to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

They continue to be some of the most disadvantaged people in the first world

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=cr&ei= ... ustralians

In my experience of living in Australia I found it to be a massively arrogant country which is happy to take swipes at other countries and gloss over its own imperfections. Yes Apartheid was massively wrong, but Australia didn't really treat its indigenous people any better and still treats them like crap.

Read the statistics on sexual violence in South Africa and you'll realise that South Africa isn't the rainbow nation that people think it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_vio ... uth_Africa

One woman is raped every 36 seconds. Think about that..... 2 or 3 women were raped in SA while you read this post. Don't pretend that Mandela took South Africa from a place where whites crapped on blacks to a place where everyone lives in harmony. He was a great man and did a better job than a lot would do, but South Africa is still a place that most want to get away from.

Do you try really hard to make yourself look clueless or does it just come naturally? I love how you've just jumped to the assumption that I'm a hypocrite (and presumably some 'Aussie pride' bogan) on the issue of blacks in South Africa solely because I come from Australia. It's almost, and I do say almost, as dumb as the time Spafranco immediately assumed I was some neoconservative republican fanboy, masquerading as an American solely because I pointed out how obviously disastrous the Obama Administration has been.

Like your buddy Spa, I'm here to bring you back to reality. No one will be as quick as me to admit Australia's utterly disgusting history when it comes to this land's indigenous people, and race relations with our Asian neighbours. In fact, for most of history we were far, far worse and more appalling than South Africa! So much so in fact that when Woodrow Wilson wanted to veto Japan's requests for racial equality in the League of Nations, he essentially went to Australia, ahead of South Africa, to do the dirty work. Also a good reason for why we to a large degree deserved Japan's hostility to us in the years that followed. Want me to go on about how this country supported the confederates in the Civil War, or how its national pride in reference to Gallipoli is often based on complete myths?

Again, get a clue. You're dealing with someone who has a massive passion for racial equality and improvement of quality of life for indigenous people - and has put his actual time and effort into contributing towards that.

My point is this, don't you make completely false assumptions about me, based on nothing but my nationality, just because you can't make a proper, independent argument for crap, and continue to undermine yourself by maintaining your poor and bitter attitude.

It's people like you who make the following pic true, and why you're really not worth the effort https://images.encyclopediadramatica.es ... ternet.jpg

[webberf1]

But to anyone who has a small enough grip on reality (or knowledge of history) to simply dismiss mandela as some useless terrorist - if you're going to dismiss Mandela as a useless terrorist then you should also dismiss the French resistance against Nazi occupation as useless terrorists (and the French didn't have it half as bad as what the Blacks and other races had it under apartheid).

Mandela was an incredibly humble individual who would be the first to admit he made some bad mistakes. And he was as imperfect as any other human being. But in his long battle against one of the most brutal, oppressive regimes of all time, he did some incredibly good things.

Are there problems in South Africa today? Yes, HUGE problems. But to blame Mandela for that is not only ignorant, it's downright pathetic. What do you expect when 90% of a country's population have been brutally suppressed for generation after generation, then are suddenly granted freedom. Do you really expect everything to suddenly be fine and dandy 20 years later? The same problem occurs anywhere when a once oppressed people are granted freedom, there will be a socioeconomic divide for generations to come - because in our world today, class mobility is tragically very limited. The fact that there are massive problems in no way justifies the former oppression, nor diminishes the need to break down that oppression.

Are we clear? Good. Thankyou.

[airshifter]

Much like others have done at various times in different parts of the world, Mandela laid a framework that gave people the opportunity for equality in South Africa. And like others, being humans, some of the solutions were imperfect. None of those individuals who did such things could control the will of every person, perfect every imperfection, nor create a perfect world.

But in my opinion, they did much, much more than the average human could be expected to do. For that I can't fault such humans.


I certainly hope that history will show the significance of Mandela and his sacrifice and loyalty to his causes.

[henners88]

I think this discussion went a bit downhill when criticisms were made based on the history of certain posters country of origin. I've been on the receiving end of things like that in the past where someone has criticised shameful things Great Britain has done throughout history. My answer to that is, what the hell has that got to do with me? I don't need to apologise for things people from my country did years before I existed. Stuff that, I'm not guilty or responsible. I will share opinions on my admirations for people who I respect in history though. Why not?

[Daniel]

But to anyone who has a small enough grip on reality (or knowledge of history) to simply dismiss mandela as some useless terrorist - if you're going to dismiss Mandela as a useless terrorist then you should also dismiss the French resistance against Nazi occupation as useless terrorists (and the French didn't have it half as bad as what the Blacks and other races had it under apartheid).

Mandela was an incredibly humble individual who would be the first to admit he made some bad mistakes. And he was as imperfect as any other human being. But in his long battle against one of the most brutal, oppressive regimes of all time, he did some incredibly good things.

Are there problems in South Africa today? Yes, HUGE problems. But to blame Mandela for that is not only ignorant, it's downright pathetic. What do you expect when 90% of a country's population have been brutally suppressed for generation after generation, then are suddenly granted freedom. Do you really expect everything to suddenly be fine and dandy 20 years later? The same problem occurs anywhere when a once oppressed people are granted freedom, there will be a socioeconomic divide for generations to come - because in our world today, class mobility is tragically very limited. The fact that there are massive problems in no way justifies the former oppression, nor diminishes the need to break down that oppression.

Are we clear? Good. Thankyou.

I never said he was a useless terrorist, I merely said that he was one. You made this up.

I also I also never said that the current problems justified the past oppression. You made this up.

How is it ignorant to blame Mandela partly for the problems that exist today? He was the PM for 5 years and presided over a country that became more violent and less economically prosperous as a whole.

It could have been much worse, he could have been a Julius Malema, but it should have been better.

The issue here is that like most Australians you were fed on only a diet of pro-ANC information during the Apartheid era. At least in the UK there was somewhat more of a balance of information.

Are we clear that you make things up to make others appear to say unspeakable things? Good. Thankyou.

[Daniel]

I think this discussion went a bit downhill when criticisms were made based on the history of certain posters country of origin. I've been on the receiving end of things like that in the past where someone has criticised shameful things Great Britain has done throughout history. My answer to that is, what the hell has that got to do with me? I don't need to apologise for things people from my country did years before I existed. Stuff that, I'm not guilty or responsible. I will share opinions on my admirations for people who I respect in history though. Why not?

It's not quite like that though. You can understand the anger that people display towards Britain right? Hell, a lot of Welsh people still have a chip on their shoulder about it. My point regarding Webberf1's origin is that in that particular country there was practically NEVER any mention of the actual reason Mandela was imprisoned, it was always said that he was jailed for "opposing the Apartheid regime" which could mean anything from a peaceful Gandhi type protest to a full blown Taliban style insurgency. Thankfully the BBC do actually make reference to why Mandela was imprisoned.

When people aren't fed the whole story then they tend to react angrily (as webberf1 did) to the truth coming out about a man who by his own admission wasn't perfect, but who was painted as perfect by the media in some countries.

It is only right that you share your opinions and admiration for historical figures and I applaud the fact that you defended my right to do so as well.

[Daniel]

Lol, not surprised to see you're still as bitter as ever. Or that you're the kind of person who would bend over to your oppressors and let them f**k you in the ass. Fortunately, some people, like Mr Mandela, never saw it that way.

I think you should get off your high kangaroo webberf1

Australia has done truly horrible things to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

They continue to be some of the most disadvantaged people in the first world

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=cr&ei= ... ustralians

In my experience of living in Australia I found it to be a massively arrogant country which is happy to take swipes at other countries and gloss over its own imperfections. Yes Apartheid was massively wrong, but Australia didn't really treat its indigenous people any better and still treats them like crap.

Read the statistics on sexual violence in South Africa and you'll realise that South Africa isn't the rainbow nation that people think it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_vio ... uth_Africa

One woman is raped every 36 seconds. Think about that..... 2 or 3 women were raped in SA while you read this post. Don't pretend that Mandela took South Africa from a place where whites crapped on blacks to a place where everyone lives in harmony. He was a great man and did a better job than a lot would do, but South Africa is still a place that most want to get away from.

Do you try really hard to make yourself look clueless or does it just come naturally? I love how you've just jumped to the assumption that I'm a hypocrite (and presumably some 'Aussie pride' bogan) on the issue of blacks in South Africa solely because I come from Australia. It's almost, and I do say almost, as dumb as the time Spafranco immediately assumed I was some neoconservative republican fanboy, masquerading as an American solely because I pointed out how obviously disastrous the Obama Administration has been.

Like your buddy Spa, I'm here to bring you back to reality. No one will be as quick as me to admit Australia's utterly disgusting history when it comes to this land's indigenous people, and race relations with our Asian neighbours. In fact, for most of history we were far, far worse and more appalling than South Africa! So much so in fact that when Woodrow Wilson wanted to veto Japan's requests for racial equality in the League of Nations, he essentially went to Australia, ahead of South Africa, to do the dirty work. Also a good reason for why we to a large degree deserved Japan's hostility to us in the years that followed. Want me to go on about how this country supported the confederates in the Civil War, or how its national pride in reference to Gallipoli is often based on complete myths?

Again, get a clue. You're dealing with someone who has a massive passion for racial equality and improvement of quality of life for indigenous people - and has put his actual time and effort into contributing towards that.

My point is this, don't you make completely false assumptions about me, based on nothing but my nationality, just because you can't make a proper, independent argument for crap, and continue to undermine yourself by maintaining your poor and bitter attitude.

It's people like you who make the following pic true, and why you're really not worth the effort https://images.encyclopediadramatica.es ... ternet.jpg

The problem is that I lived 23 years of my life in Australia, I know how one sided the media were when it came to South Africa and you are merely a product of that, the mere mention of Mandela being a terrorist and you call me bitter and make out that I think the current situation justifies Apartheid. People's nationality does have a lot to do with how they think and feel, do you think many South Africans, Indians, Maori's or people from former colonies think that the British Empire was a great thing? It won't surprise you to know that some British people DO think that it was, they won't come out and say that slavery or going into countries and stealing their natural wealth was great, but that WAS part of it. Apartheid was never justified, end of story, but Mandela's imprisonment was justified..... if Aborigines started sabotaging infrastructure and launching terrorist attacks on innocent Australians, would you want them put in jail?

My point was that Australia as a whole has a holier than thou attitude when it comes to the treatment of indigenous people, but the way it treated and continues to treat its indigenous inhabitants is quite shameful. I don't blame you for this one bit, but if the Aborigines started rising up and killing white Australians, I certainly wouldn't think that this was in any way justified. Now obviously because Australia isn't perfect that doesn't mean Australians shouldn't voice their opinions on other countries and how they treat their indigenous peoples, but perhaps you should move out of the glass house before you start throwing stones.