Electric cars

[Mark]

Trolleybuses are beginning to make a comeback, as a result of "environmental concerns". The European Union, for example, is promoting them, as well as electric public transport as a whole.

I'm sure in many places they didn't go away. In Zurich for example, as well as a dense tram network they also have trolley buses which go right out into the suburbs - they do have diesel buses too. But it means in the city centre there are very few oil burning vehicles, and it's a nicer place to be as a result.

[Knock-on]

I'm sure in many places they didn't go away. In Zurich for example, as well as a dense tram network they also have trolley buses which go right out into the suburbs - they do have diesel buses too. But it means in the city centre there are very few oil burning vehicles, and it's a nicer place to be as a result.

Zurich is a very pleasant place to be. The Tram network is extensive, regular and punctual. I was able to commute from the Airport to the opposite side of the city in about 30 mins.

What I like about Zurich is that the centre has very few cars because it just doesn't make any sense. Would be great if this happened in UK cities.

The problem we have in the UK is that the we have a different transport model. Most European Cities have a commercial centre surrounded by housing which is serviced by a good public transport network. The UK is much more fragmented and people commute across areas more.

For me, unless I worked in the centre of London, it would be impractical to use public transport. Even if I worked 20 miles way in Basingstoke, it would cost more and take longer than using a car and I live on one of the busiest train lines in the Country and Basingstoke is a major Town nearby.

Anyway, Electric cars. As I have said, they are not at all viable on their own at this time. I think there needs to be more joined up thinking with the manufacturers about including more complimentary technologies. Solar, KERS etc and at least another type of power generation source. Electric on it's own is too restrictive and battery swap out stations wont work. You would have to get buy-in from all manufacturers to standardise battery terminals and that wont happen. It will also mean, even with standard size and terminals, that swap out stations would have to hold a massive stock of legacy batteries as new ones come out each month. After all, if you have a nice new 2021 year Tesla with super doper, long life, high power battery and it gets swapped at the first station for a crappy 2014 battery that's knackered, has restricted power output, takes 10x longer to recharge and lasts a fraction of the time when used, would you be happy? So, what are you going to do?

Just wont work.

So, electric car + solar + Energy Recovery + additional power source that can be refilled will work. For me, with the current and emerging technology is Hydrogen electric generation to power the electric motor and batteries and can easily be dispensed with minimal investment from existing fuel stations.

[Starter]

The problem we have in the UK is that the we have a different transport model. Most European Cities have a commercial centre surrounded by housing which is serviced by a good public transport network. The UK is much more fragmented and people commute across areas more.

For me, unless I worked in the centre of London, it would be impractical to use public transport. Even if I worked 20 miles way in Basingstoke, it would cost more and take longer than using a car and I live on one of the busiest train lines in the Country and Basingstoke is a major Town nearby.

This is the issue we have in the US and most of Canada and one of the main reasons I don't think we'll see electric vehicles in large use any time soon.

[airshifter]

Anyway, Electric cars. As I have said, they are not at all viable on their own at this time. I think there needs to be more joined up thinking with the manufacturers about including more complimentary technologies. Solar, KERS etc and at least another type of power generation source. Electric on it's own is too restrictive and battery swap out stations wont work. You would have to get buy-in from all manufacturers to standardise battery terminals and that wont happen. It will also mean, even with standard size and terminals, that swap out stations would have to hold a massive stock of legacy batteries as new ones come out each month. After all, if you have a nice new 2021 year Tesla with super doper, long life, high power battery and it gets swapped at the first station for a crappy 2014 battery that's knackered, has restricted power output, takes 10x longer to recharge and lasts a fraction of the time when used, would you be happy? So, what are you going to do?

Just wont work.

So, electric car + solar + Energy Recovery + additional power source that can be refilled will work. For me, with the current and emerging technology is Hydrogen electric generation to power the electric motor and batteries and can easily be dispensed with minimal investment from existing fuel stations.

I know that recently there have been some major breakthroughs with hydrogen fuel cells, but not sure if the methods for filling and use are in line yet. But I do agree that at this point some type of hybrid is most likely the answer. Without some type of emergency reserve power on board most people won't move to electric any time soon. I'd guess that until electrics reach a reliable range of 500-600 miles most won't even really strongly consider them.

I'm surprised nobody has made a hybrid which is essentially an electric with a generator that only charges the battery. Fixed RPM generators can be very efficient, especially diesel, propane and natural gas units.

[Mark]

Not many people in the UK have cars which can go 500-600 miles on a single tank, the likes of my car as a 10 gallon (UK) tank. So even doing a good 50MPG and using every last drop of diesel I'd only get 500 miles. Realistically I'm refueling after 300-350 miles.

[airshifter]

Not many people in the UK have cars which can go 500-600 miles on a single tank, the likes of my car as a 10 gallon (UK) tank. So even doing a good 50MPG and using every last drop of diesel I'd only get 500 miles. Realistically I'm refueling after 300-350 miles.

Most larger US based cars have a lesser range as well. My concern is that without a "leave right now" reserve on hand people won't take electrics seriously. Say you have an emergency that requires a tip of 300 miles. In a petrol based car you can top off and go. Being that I don't see the battery change stations being a viable solution, having reserve capacity (regardless of power source) would be a must for me personally.

There are alternatives now in hybrids that plug in, but they rely mostly on the petrol in extended range modes, so that really isn't saving much fossil fuel.

[SGWilko]

Not many people in the UK have cars which can go 500-600 miles on a single tank, the likes of my car as a 10 gallon (UK) tank. So even doing a good 50MPG and using every last drop of diesel I'd only get 500 miles. Realistically I'm refueling after 300-350 miles.

Many people don't really care about efficiency if they do not have to think about the cost.

I've got a relatively new 1.8 TDCi which I regularly get 500 miles to a tank, an extra 150 miles if there is no short jourey driving.

But then to me cost and efficiency is everything when burning fossil fuels is concerned. The hired Mercedes B Class we had in Italy in May I scored 95% on the efficiency driving thingy on the trip computer!

[airshifter]

Many people don't really care about efficiency if they do not have to think about the cost.

I've got a relatively new 1.8 TDCi which I regularly get 500 miles to a tank, an extra 150 miles if there is no short jourey driving.

But then to me cost and efficiency is everything when burning fossil fuels is concerned. The hired Mercedes B Class we had in Italy in May I scored 95% on the efficiency driving thingy on the trip computer!

I track MPG on a spreadsheet, as well as cost per mile. It helps put into perspective the waste of not combining trips and such, as well as help keep track if the vehicles are in a good state of tune. I also log fill brand, to find the best "bang for the buck" in fuel return. I did this even when I was compensated for gas, and used a company car.

We are guilty of taking the larger vehicle when not really needed, but when my family is involved the safety factor overcomes the fuel economy factor for me.

[Malbec]

Those sorts of issues like drainage underneath the slot would be built into the roadway. As far as I'm aware, modern roads already have drains to channel water away.
Railways seem to work in rain and snow and the transmission of electricity seems to work in cold weather as well.

As has already been mentioned railway tracks used to conduct electricity protrude upwards from the underlying ground. A slot would presumably be at the level of or below the road surface.

If water builds up due to torrential rain how would you prevent a) a short circuit and b) people/animals also standing in the water from being electrocuted?

I don't believe electric cars will be THE solution, but nor do I believe that there will be a single universal future solution.

I accept that electric cars don't cut down overall pollution unless electric power is nuclear or wind/water generated, however this isn't the full picture. Even in countries that generate electricity via coal and other dirty sources electric cars shift the source of pollution outside population centres to less harmful areas. Also it cuts down on petrol imports which has a big impact on trade balances and political/strategic concerns given the area from which most oil comes from.

People talk about what makes sense but that can be altered by incentives. Hybrids and electric cars are popular in London because there is a clear financial incentive, no congestion charge. This skews cost/benefit ratios in favour of them. I can see pure electric cars making sense for many governments around the world like Israel or city states like Singapore where long distance travel is non-existent because of the small state area and where the need to cut petrol imports is high. These places can make electric cars make sense for most people by subsidies and penalties for other types of engine if they feel the need. Market forces will take care of the rest, providing an infrastructure for electric vehicles in those places that incentivise them.

That said there are plenty of options available, petrol engines still have a long way to go especially with hybrids and fuel cell vehicles will IMO be one of the most popular options. I also think that with most people in the future living in urban areas worldwide it will be quite normal to have two types of vehicle in a household, a small urban vehicle which may well be electric and short-ranged with a bigger long distance vehicle for rural or inter-city trips. Many households have already adopted a similar model anyway.

[donKey jote]

Electric is feasible for cities, and would make a massive impact on air quality and noise pollution. All you'd need is a few inductive charging areas to top up wherever you park.
I hope to get my first in a couple of years... I'm tempted already but they're still a bit too expensive for the priviledge of being a beta-tester.
Plus they don't sell Teslas in Europe..