How good were D. Hill and J. Villeneuve?

[DexDexter]

Ridiculous compared to whom Mike Hawthorn, James Hunt, Keke Rosberg?
I would not label any WC ridiculous, the rules are well known at the outset and there is no asterisk saying the winner had a vastly superior car.
JV accomplishments before he ever got to F1 are impressive enough, Indy winner and CART champion, when CART really could be mentioned in the same breath as F1.
He is in stellar company as winner of 2 of the 3 Graham Hill Triple events (WC, Indy500, Le Mans) He was the last man with a realistic chance at achieving this, and though he didn't I can't see anyone else doing so either.

Keke may have won one only one race in his WDC season but he was a very good driver and had balls. Won the Monaco GP 1983 with slick tires while everyone else was on wets.

Hill on the other hand never beat a team mate with a proven pedigree (same goes for Villeneuve). Hill had his moments though, Hungary 1997 was probably his greatest drive - in an Arrows.

The fact that Hill & Villeneuve never drove against great drivers in the same team is probably the reason many people don't held them in high regard.

[BDunnell]

The fact that Hill & Villeneuve never drove against great drivers in the same team is probably the reason many people don't held them in high regard.

Michael Schumacher never drove against a great driver in the same team, either.

[truefan72]

Michael Schumacher never drove against a great driver in the same team, either.

or even a drvier teammate allowed to compete against him
I think he also did nothing for irvine in japan to help irvine win the title

he also made sure that rubens was nt allowed to challenge him for race wins either.
It was a dark chapter in the sporting ethics of F1

also lets not forget that Ferrari had prety much a tire company providing them exclusive tires, aprivate track for unlimited testing, the FIArrari cabal, and some highly speculative engineering opn the car.
Then there was schumi, who although is the greatest imo was alsoone of the dirtiest and coldest drivers out there. with a good number of reprehensible actions in his resume.

[wedge]

That's right - the car that the undoubted best driver of the moment - Senna - was losing to Michael in.......

Then the whole team has the upheaval of Senna's death, the legal aspects etc.

Not to mention the fuel flow irregularities, option 13, launch etc that the Benetton had..........

Not to mention Schumi being disqualified from 4 races - inept officiating at the British GP gifted Hill the win and championship points tally.

The Benetton was deemed legal - despite Max Mosley being at war with Flavio Briatore.

[SGWilko]

Not to mention Schumi being disqualified from 4 races - inept officiating at the British GP gifted Hill the win and championship points tally.

The Benetton was deemed legal - despite Max Mosley being at war with Flavio Briatore.

Well, the liiegal removal of a filter from the fuelling rig, with the sole aim of shortening fuel stops by increasing flow, could have killed not only Verstappen, but a number of mechanics......

[SGWilko]

The Benetton was deemed legal - despite Max Mosley being at war with Flavio Briatore.

History has proved Max's instinct on Flavio to be correct in respect of honesty......

[jens]

Created a new thread, because similarly to the Vettel discussion, it seems too juicy and interesting to people to just delete or stop the whole debate altogether.

Keke may have won one only one race in his WDC season but he was a very good driver and had balls. Won the Monaco GP 1983 with slick tires while everyone else was on wets.

Hill on the other hand never beat a team mate with a proven pedigree (same goes for Villeneuve). Hill had his moments though, Hungary 1997 was probably his greatest drive - in an Arrows.

The fact that Hill & Villeneuve never drove against great drivers in the same team is probably the reason many people don't held them in high regard.

As mentioned, Schumacher and certainly many other drivers didn't drive alongside a "great" either. Then again the term "great" is subjective. For instance Frentzen was considered to be a top talent before 1997 driving alongside Villeneuve. And in 1999 Frentzen certainly was a top driver. In addition to that Hill actually did drive alongside a great driver, two of them actually - Prost and Mansell. Though both of them were past their prime, especially Mansell. But Hill looked good alongside Prost in 1993. I don't know, what it was - maybe all those electronic aids suited him and he could give Prost a run for his money, but in my book 1993 is one of Hill's best seasons.

[pino]

Moved to Motorsport History, sorry

[wedge]

I think that is a disrespectful comment. Hill and Villeneuve may not be on a plain with the greats of the sport but they were still world class drivers. A driver has to be capable of extracting the potential and keeping his head under pressure in order to win a WDC and there are many examples of drivers who have driven championship capable cars but failed to win under pressure.

They were drivers of a high calibre but certainly not greats, right time and right moment - bit like Jenson/Brawn GP.

It's worth remembering David Coulthard was immediately called upon as number 2 driver. He was highly regarded and eventually being wanted by McLaren but at Williams he looked out of his depth at times (eg. famously crashed into Adelaide's pit entry), was rarely on the podium and only secured one win despite having the best car.

Well, the liiegal removal of a filter from the fuelling rig, with the sole aim of shortening fuel stops by increasing flow, could have killed not only Verstappen, but a number of mechanics......

Benetton blamed it on a rogue employee. Whether you believe it or not is down to one's opinion.

We've seen a number of accidents in the refuelling but none as spectacular as the 1994 German GP.

I'm not condoning Benetton but motor racing and sport is about pushing the limits to the point of cheating and compromising safety, teams trying to stay ahead of the rule makers; every car is illegal, the officials aren't looking hard enough.

If you take the 2011 Belgian GP the teams were advised not to go beyond x amount of camber yet RBR still pushed the limits, poo poo-ed and cried.

The point is safety can be a strange concept in motor racing.

History has proved Max's instinct on Flavio to be correct in respect of honesty......

Arguably Max abused his position in his vendetta.

Schumacher's points were erased from that season's British GP yet the blame lay firmly at the officials - including Charlie Whiting; Flavio won compensation and had his ban overturned after the Singapore/Piquet scandal.

Yet McLaren were allowed to compete for the WDC after systematic cheating.

[wedge]

A good read on JV's time at BAR F1 Rejects - Who Barred Jacques? A Controversial Opinion

Sorry, but Hill couldn't secure the WDC in 1994 in the best car of the field. He was beaten by Schumacher despite the chin being banned for two races and disqualified from a third and he still was in a position where a simple punt into the armco was enough to win the title. And even in his championship year he was beaten three times by Schumacher in a downright ridiculous Ferrari. Hill had no business even being mentioned in the same sentence as his father. What Villeneuve was worth, we saw once he was out of that all-conquering Williams. Even Vettel has a win in a Torro Rosso before he steam-rolled the field in the Red Bull. Villeneuve has bloody nothing. Both Hill and Villeneuve are the most ridiculous world champions ever. Schumacher had taken himself out of contention by going to a desolate Ferrari, McLaren was nowhere . Else those two would never have even gotten close to a trophy.

Much could be said the same of Vettel.

And oh, BTW, Hill steam rolled the field at the 1997 Hungarian GP. In an Arrows.

1994 - Williams started off with an ill handling car. I have more contention for 1995. Hill was a donkey that year and should have won the WDC.