Williams blues

[jens]

I suspect part of the problems with Williams is the inability to associate with a major sponsor, corporation, or manufacturer post its Renault era. Williams BMW had some good years, but after a string of bad seasons, BMW was pissed off and wanted to change things. Frank Williams refused to sell the team. BMW bought Sauber and Williams switched to Cosworth engines after 2005. It went downhill for Williams from there. I think the truly rich sponsors don't feel comfortable any more giving lots of money without owning the team.

Yes, the comparison with Sauber is interesting, because both are privateer teams, yet Sauber has managed to keep a more consistent form. In my view one of the reasons for that is that Peter Sauber has simply been more open-minded about future strategy than Frank Williams. Peter has been absolutely ready to sell the team without worrying about his personal legacy. He wanted a new ownership back in 09-10, but didn't find a buyer and had to re-establish himself as a team principal.

Another aspect is the BMW era. BMW may have pulled out to leave Sauber in cold, but the era of 06-09 was useful for the team - they got the much-needed financial boost to upgrade the facilities and infrastructure. I think to this day it is pretty advanced, which enables the team to stay competitive. I don't know about Williams, but they could be more outdated. Williams tries to change some things, but they are reacting too little too slowly and competition has moved past them.

[Koz]

Regardless of how much credit people want to give to Newey for RBR's success, it is clearly the general athmosphere and harmony in the team, which enables to deliver at the highest level. After all, McLaren didn't enjoy that much success together with Newey before that, especially in the 2000's.

I disagree with this very, very much.
Two world championships with Mika, and very nearly two more with Kimi. The fact that they did not dominate does not mean much when you consider how badly Ferrari dominated.

Look at 1999, aside from bad luck, the McLaren dominated. It was (or at least should have been) no less a whitewash than 2011 season. The car was on podium or retired. The fact that they didn't get results that they deserved doesn't mean it wasn't within a whisker.

What's wrong with Williams? They really tried to change the design team in 2011, I give them that. Yet it hasn't solved fundamental issues. What issue? If I am telling honestly, I don't get an energetic youthful vibe from Williams. For many years it has left an impression of a team, who is just dying a slow death rather than building up something. Frank Williams - as great as he is - certainly isn't as energetic as he was 20 years ago.

I think Frank Williams is what is wrong with Williams. Last year they had a great car, and Pastor ruined everything for them, except that win. The car was capable of so much more but wasted on a idiot with money and the famous name, also with money - yet who wasn't allowed any FP1 testing, can anyone explain this to me??

Everything Williams does seems stupid to me. Their move to Cosworth was the stupidest one of all. Hiring Rubens, too, was pointless, as was getting rid of Hulkenburg.

[Ranger]

Koz, you just reminded me of a big, institutional problem at Williams.

They seem to create (or have) an environment where some drivers cannot perform at their best.

Frentzen and Hulkenberg are the biggest examples of this. Both are considerably more talented than their results at Williams show, as seen by 1999 and the later half of 2012, respectively.

Hiring Rubens, too, was pointless, as was getting rid of Hulkenburg.

Barrichello was better than Hulkenberg in 2010, same with Maldonado in 2011 to a lesser extent.

Rubens would have done Williams' points tally a shred of justice in 2012, given the car was top 5 material at some points of the season.

Unlike Maldonado, who could have easily doubled his points tally, but for no other reason than repeated stupid mistakes. Or maybe it was just stupid decisions, as seen in Monaco and Valencia. Bruno Senna on the other hand seemed nowhere in terms of pace.

Other than that I agree with everything you said.

[Malbec]

Last year they had a great car, and Pastor ruined everything for them, except that win. The car was capable of so much more but wasted on a idiot with money and the famous name, also with money - yet who wasn't allowed any FP1 testing, can anyone explain this to me??

How good would that car have been without Maldonaldo's $50 million? You take the money then you got to take the driver that comes with it. Would the money gained by having a more consistent driver than Maldonaldo offset the sponsorship money lost by not having PDVSA on board? I doubt it.

[Malbec]

Another aspect is the BMW era. BMW may have pulled out to leave Sauber in cold, but the era of 06-09 was useful for the team - they got the much-needed financial boost to upgrade the facilities and infrastructure. I think to this day it is pretty advanced, which enables the team to stay competitive. I don't know about Williams, but they could be more outdated. Williams tries to change some things, but they are reacting too little too slowly and competition has moved past them.

Sauber has one advantage (which is also a disadvantage) over Williams.

Being based in Switzerland they find it difficult to recruit staff but those they do recruit tend to stay there.

Williams is based in motorsports valley and while in boom years its easy to find excellent staff now they are in a rut its difficult to retain the best people who end up sucked away by better funded teams not too far away. Its the same problem BAR/Honda/Mercedes have had as well.

[wedge]

Sauber has one advantage (which is also a disadvantage) over Williams.

Being based in Switzerland they find it difficult to recruit staff but those they do recruit tend to stay there.

Williams is based in motorsports valley and while in boom years its easy to find excellent staff now they are in a rut its difficult to retain the best people who end up sucked away by better funded teams not too far away. Its the same problem BAR/Honda/Mercedes have had as well.

With rumours of James Allison moving to Ferrari its highly regarded that remuneration is a major point for personnel changes.

James Key, for instance, highly regarded as technical director moves from one midfield team to another which can look illogical to the outsider.

[truefan72]

I think Frank Williams is what is wrong with Williams. Last year they had a great car, and Pastor ruined everything for them, except that win. The car was capable of so much more but wasted on a idiot with money and the famous name, also with money - yet who wasn't allowed any FP1 testing, can anyone explain this to me??

Everything Williams does seems stupid to me. Their move to Cosworth was the stupidest one of all. Hiring Rubens, too, was pointless, as was getting rid of Hulkenburg.

yup

[Koz]

How good would that car have been without Maldonaldo's $50 million? You take the money then you got to take the driver that comes with it. Would the money gained by having a more consistent driver than Maldonaldo offset the sponsorship money lost by not having PDVSA on board? I doubt it.

That is part of the problem, not the solution.

If 50 million for Pastor and 20 million for Senna is correct, how far off is their budget from Lotus?
It must be higher than Sauber, FI, STR at least. But they just don't deliver.

There is something inherently wrong with Williams' business model.
Did the dollars they save by going to Cosworth benefit them?
And last year they had a decent car let down by drivers...

They could have been on the podium consistently in 2010 if they had a decent engine.

If they need so much money from drivers to stay in F1, then I don't know what else I can say. You aren't going to attract the big sponsor by consistently being the weakest team on the grid, regardless of why they are the weakest.

[zako85]

That is part of the problem, not the solution.

If 50 million for Pastor and 20 million for Senna is correct, how far off is their budget from Lotus?
It must be higher than Sauber, FI, STR at least. But they just don't deliver.

I thought PDVSA's sponsortship was close to 25million a year, so 50 million figure is over two years. Besides South Americans, Williams doesn't have that many good sponsors. AT&T left them a year or two ago. I'd bet that Lotus sponsors bring more money. They got Total and Burn (new sponsor). Having beaten Williams consistently in WCC, and taken 3rd last year also brought Lotus more money. One difference between that two is that Lotus seems to be willing to spend more aggressively all the money they have and then some.

There is something inherently wrong with Williams' business model.
Did the dollars they save by going to Cosworth benefit them?

Yes. They posted profit at the time Lotus was incurring big debts. Lotus frequently owned money to Renault for engines, I think even the last year.

[Koz]

I thought PDVSA's sponsortship was close to 25million a year, so 50 million figure is over two years. Besides South Americans, Williams doesn't have that many good sponsors. AT&T left them a year or two ago. I'd bet that Lotus sponsors bring more money. They got Total and Burn (new sponsor). Having beaten Williams consistently in WCC, and taken 3rd last year also brought Lotus more money. One difference between that two is that Lotus seems to be willing to spend more aggressively all the money they have and then some.



Yes. They posted profit at the time Lotus was incurring big debts. Lotus frequently owned money to Renault for engines, I think even the last year.

Absolutely. And look what they have accomplished in the last year. I believe they still are in massive debt, but the way they are going they will get out of it.

Williams is posting a profit, but at what cost?
They aren't going to attract big sponsors if they are languishing behind everyone else.

Fine, they aren't on par with the top 5 teams, but I refuse to believe that they SRT, FI, Sauber have lower budgets than Williams.

The way they are going, it seems they just want to exist and as long as they somehow post a profit to stay alive, that's all that matters.

This reminds me of a lot of failed businesses who always try to cut costs at the cost of cutting quality. It rarely works.