How good is Vettel?

[jens]

That is why I like watching Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi.

Didn't you like Vettel's pole lap yesterday? It was a splendid lap. That's why I meant by appreciating impressive driving skills.

Endless downplaying of someone's skills will lead to nowhere in the end. Especially if the reality keeps proving otherwise year-after-year. Mind you, I had doubts whether Vettel has got what it takes to be a top driver. It was in 2010, when he was making mistakes. But since the embarrassment of Spa 2010 he has been a different driver. His worst race performance since then has been 4th at the Nürburgring in 2011. And this is now over a period of more than two years. So on average his standard and consistency has been extremely high since then.

And not least, Vettel has been an inspiration for myself as well. In both 2010 and 2012 I wrote him off in the title race after 2/3rds of the season. But he fought back and delivered, needing a perfect end to the season. This is what is inspirational. You keep up the mentality even if the odds are against you. You still come back and get things done. Impressive.

Also I like the way he has been improving each year and working on his weaknesses. Not long ago there were suggestions Vettel can't overtake. Hardly an adequate criticism any longer. The endless drive for perfection that so much described Schumacher himself.

With these Vettel discussions I am having flashbacks in time by 10 years ago, when there were suggestions that the unsporting Schumacher was winning only due to superior car and Räikkönen and Montoya would beat him in similar equipment. This, what I am reading now, all sounds so similar to what was then. But it doesn't matter. I know Vettel can deliver and will keep doing it as long as he remains motivated and in good form.

[Ranger]

STR one of the best cars in late 2008? I think you are blowing things way out of proportion. It was a front-running car only at Monza.'

They were about the 4th fastest team and had several races where both drivers (including Bourdais) qualified in the top ten and finished in the top 6.

Ergo, they were one of the fastest cars in late 2008. I never said anything about being able to win at every race.

[Garry Walker]

Didn't you like Vettel's pole lap yesterday? It was a splendid lap. That's why I meant by appreciating impressive driving skills.

What was so impressive about it? He had the best car, he used it.

His worst race performance since then has been 4th at the Nürburgring in 2011. And this is now over a period of more than two years. So on average his standard and consistency has been extremely high since then.

I guess having the kind of car he has had has helped a bit.

And not least, Vettel has been an inspiration for myself as well. In both 2010 and 2012 I wrote him off in the title race after 2/3rds of the season. But he fought back and delivered, needing a perfect end to the season. This is what is inspirational. You keep up the mentality even if the odds are against you.

I guess you don't need playboy magazine when you have him.

The question really should be - why on earth was he not running away with the titles in both 2010 and 2012? Why did he need to come back? He had the best car, he had the fastest car, he had everything going for him. I repeat, Alonso in that car would have sealed those titles up with 3 races to go.

[jens]

What was so impressive about it? He had the best car, he used it.


I guess having the kind of car he has had has helped a bit.

I guess you don't need playboy magazine when you have him.

The question really should be - why on earth was he not running away with the titles in both 2010 and 2012? Why did he need to come back? He had the best car, he had the fastest car, he had everything going for him. I repeat, Alonso in that car would have sealed those titles up with 3 races to go.

Kimi also had the best car in Australia. Wasn't his win impressive?

Having "that kind of car" certainly helps, but we can't speak about buttonesque-level performances, who was 16th in a car in which Hamilton won (Canada 2012). So consistency is still needed.

2010 was a complicated year, including RBR's reliability, strategy mistakes, driver mistakes, some unluck. It was not Vettel's best year though, he has had better years since then. But it wasn't Alonso's best either, he was making mistakes early in the season as well.

In 2012 RBR was hardly the best car for 2/3rds of the season. Ferrari was excellent in the wet and on the whole roughly a match to RBR in the dry from Spain onwards to Italian GP. Vettel was roughly tied with Alonso on points until the Valencia GP weekend, which was crucial in earning a points cushion in the Spaniard's favour.

However, I do think Alonso was the better driver in the first half of 2012, he was mighty impressive. But from Germany onwards the tide started to turn and there wasn't a single race, where Webber managed to outrace Vettel, while Massa could genuinely match or outpace Alonso on a few occasions.

[dj_bytedisaster]

The question really should be - why on earth was he not running away with the titles in both 2010 and 2012? Why did he need to come back? He had the best car, he had the fastest car, he had everything going for him. I repeat, Alonso in that car would have sealed those titles up with 3 races to go.

Seriously, sometimes you make me laugh. If Vettel walked on water, you'd be screaming all over the forum that the toad can't even swim. No matter how much you hate him - it won't change the fact that he has 3 WDC. And you constant whining about the RB being the fastest car is silly. When it turns out the best, that means 10 other designers didn't do their job properly. You can't fault a driver for using what's given to him.

[Knock-on]

The Red Newey is a superb car and Seb has used the best car on the grid to ahieve 3 titles. As DJ says, it's up to the rest to challenge.

However, I don't think Seb is the best driver. He will make quite a lot of mistakes when he's challenged and showed his true class today. I expect he'll go the way of Schumacher and do anything, legal or not, to win.

[dj_bytedisaster]

However, I don't think Seb is the best driver. He will make quite a lot of mistakes when he's challenged and showed his true class today. I expect he'll go the way of Schumacher and do anything, legal or not, to win.

Isn't that how most champions collect their wins? Remember Hill blackmailing his team to order Ralf to stay behind in Spa '98? Or Sena ramming Prost off? I think most of the lot have little reason for a holier than thou attitude.

[zako85]

This is a topic that can be debated inconclusively for ages. I think he is good. Like the other best of breed drivers (Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, etc), he made a huge statement in his very first full time season, by winning a race in his case. 3 world championships. He keeps fighting with great enthusiasm even in face of adversity. Now is he as good as Hamilton or Alonso? It's hard to answer this question. I am leaning to say that he is probably at least as good as Hamilton, as Hamilton is fast but not always consistent. Alonso vs Vettel is more difficult to decide.

[jens]

This is a topic that can be debated inconclusively for ages.

That's true. And this is why it is far more meaningful to simply enjoy races, championships and skills behind the wheel. At the same time people still debate, who was better - Senna or Schumacher. And will keep debating. Will it lead to anywhere? I don't think so. Argument ad infinitum.

The only thing that matters is what you do with your opportunities. Opportunities as such are never equal - so you have got to maximize whatever you have got. Someone has the best car, someone is stuck in midfield, someone hasn't even got the money to have a racing career. But this is not something to get frustrated about. Everyone has their own life path as I'd put it.

Alonso and Hamilton fans can get unhappy that their drivers are perhaps not winning as many titles as their chief rival of modern era. But they can take it from another angle of view as well. They have already won championships. So neither is the Moss or the G.Villeneuve of the modern era. In fact, Alonso already has as many titles as the Great Jim Clark.

Alonso and Hamilton have had a good career compared to those talented kids, who have run out of funding somewhere in feeder series or karting. Or compared to Robert Kubica, whose skills I rate extremely highly to this day, who could have become one of modern frontrunners in different circumstances, while it looks like in reality he remains just a winner of a solitary Grand Prix.

Vettel happened to join RBR just at the time, when they have hit their purple patch. And not just for a moment, but for a long period. It is certainly fortunate and Vettel has been fortunate in his career. You always need some luck in addition to skills and talent. But without the latter two you won't get far anyway.

[markabilly]

At the Austin GP, thanks again to taz, I had the opportunity to watch Vettel compared to the other drivers as they went through a couple of fairly sharp turns. Right from the begginng Vettel was very smooth and fast, without looking fast.

He also took the a wide path through the corner, wider than anyone else. The others, such as Kimi, Schumacher, Hamilton, all were using the principle of the shortest and fastest path between two points is a straight line, and were all as close to the apexes as possible. They looked fast.....

but the smooth wide path was taken by vettel.

This type of driving is also the easiest on the tires.....

hence, in this day and age, where in order to save tires and weight, the cars are not filled up with enough gas to go flat out the entire race and the tires just do not last---

So we have the guy finishing in the 9th spot (per today) having the fastest race lap, despite not making it into the top 10 at qualifying, says more than you want to hear about the current level of racing in F-1.

So for the last coupe of years, at this type of racing, vettel is the best I can identify.

But would he have been so good in 2000???