schumi's wonderful career

[Garry Walker]

As another topic got closed based on my exchange with my new-found BFF, captainraiden, but I thought the content of the thread too valuable to waste (LOL), I will post my last message from that thread here, to spark up the debate that might actually have some interesting points.

Let's keep it civil (LOL)

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Being shown the way by Barbie for the last two years somehow doesn't go with the "greatest" theory.

Schumacher has been faster than Barbie in most races this year.

DC was never a contender, only when Mika lost his passion.

So mika lost his passion in 1997?

And on equal terms, Hakkinen was very much a match for Michael.

LOL. Mika was nowhere near as good as MS. Unless you want to claim McLaren and Ferrari were equal in 1998?

It took Ferrari a whole lot of testing and new parts for Michael to finally take that crown in 2000, for ex. the 049b engine Monza 2000 onwards, and the fact that Bridgestone favored Ferrari mid season, the reason why so many teams jumped to Michelin when they entered the sport.

Ferrari was the only team to bring upgrades and new developments to their car throughout the season?

Schumacher's WDC in 1994 is clouded by his "accident" with Hill, and the WDC in 1995 also tainted because of Benetton's mysterious traction control. 2001, 2002 and 2004 championships were won in clearly the best car in the field, which any of the top tier drivers now could do just as easily.

1) The accident with Hill was 100% the fault of Damon. There was no room for him, there never was going to be any room for him, yet he stupidly tried to bully his way through.
2)In 1995 there were no TC accusations and no TC was ever found on Benetton. Now, McLaren is a different case in that they actually got caught cheating in 1994.
Oh and DC admitted that Williams Renault tested the car with TC after it was banned already. Cheaters!

Besides age is not a valid excuse anymore. Rubens is only 3 years younger, and he did absolutely fine against Button in 2009, and is doing so now too against a much younger Maldonado.

Yeah, Maldonado the superstar.

I've seen 45+ year old combat sport veterans outstrike and outlast much younger opponents. Agreed they don't have to endure g-forces, but people who have been athletes all their life, have a much longer prime period, and their reflexes are still very strong for a very long time.

The second excuse is time away from sport. Well, he has had two winter testing periods and almost two seasons under his belt now, and I'm sure many, many hours in the simulator. When is he gonna start beating Nico Rosberg decisively and consistently?
He's just about only matching him now. Does he need half a decade to get used to racing again??

MS does not use the simulator for the same reason Kimi doesnt - they get sick in it.
Do you think MS is as good now as he was in 2001?

Agreed that he brings in good sponsorship money, and it makes sense as the whole German Mercedes-Schumacher affair, but there are a lot more capable drivers out there who would be making good use of that seat.

LOL. Like who? Name one.

Because Ferrari clearly had the biggest budget of all in those years, and the years following, everybody knows this. Only Toyota had a bigger budget than Ferrari and Mclaren in 2008. And before you go on describing Michael as some brilliant car setup guy, the biggest piece of the pie goes to the actual engineers, designers and mechanics who worked at the factory.

The only thing you have right here is that Michael or no other driver designs the car. Driver has very little to do with the quality of his car, that is up to the engineers.

How old are you? Are you aware of the whole 1994 controversy at all? I would have asked you to Google it, but here, I'll help ya out: 1994 Formula One cheating controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

F1 News - Grandprix.com > GP Encyclopedia > People > Tad Czapski

That Benetton still to this day is one of the most blatantly illegal cars to ever win a championship. There were allegations that Benetton were still using it in 1995. Also, search Youtube for Michael's "brilliant" starts during the Benetton years where he used to gobble up 3-4 cars within the first 50 meters. *cough* illegal launch control. *cough*

Name examples of those super starts he had in 1994 and 1995 where he overtook many cars at the start? Examples!
The only brilliant start he had was at France in 1994 where he went from 3rd to 1st, but other than that he had plenty of bad starts.

The flexible wings row was again an allegation at Ferrari during, surprise, surprise, Michael's time there. The double diffuser wasn't cheating, or else they'd have banned it. Instead, they allowed all the other teams to come up with their own interpretations. If the double diffuser was so advantageous, Toyota would have won as well, as them and Brawn were the only ones coming out of the box with it.

Were Ferrari punished for it? No.
Was it illegal? No

Also, Michael didn't win the 1994 championship "fair and square". Shamelessly punting out your championship rival at the last race of the season is not "fair and square".

The one who did the punting was stupid Damon who tried to overtake in a place where it was impossible.

See Michael and Damon accident at Adelaide 1994. He was using illegal TC, and yet was about to get beaten by Damon Hill, and when he saw the championship slipping away, he just turned into Damon, breaking his suspension arm. I don't think any other driver in the modern era has been that blatantly ruthless, careless and cheating. Now, the way Button, Seb and Lewis have won their championship is what you call fair and square.

Again you keep going on about TC and Benetton having it. Reality is not your friend though. TC was never found on the Benetton, never was there any proof they used it. Do you have proof that they used it? If you dont, then admit you were speaking BS.

BTW he was disqualified twice during 1994.

Do you even know for what?

Ferrari were disqualified at the end of 1999 as well for using illegal barge boards, and then FIA withdrew the disqualification and let them fight for the title at Suzuka.

Guess because they knew the disqualification was pure crap and the wrong decision to make.

Also in 2003, when Ferrari and your precious Schumi were getting beaten, they launched a protest against Michelin regarding tyre width, which BTW was the same since 2001. FIA banned those tyres mid-season, which allowed Michael and Ferrari to take the 2003 crown. These are the kinds of incidents that got FIA the infamous name, "Ferrari International Assiatance" FYI. Even the great Ross Brawn was struggling for answers.

So Michelin was cheating for over 2 years? That is just disgusting.

So, the 1994 title was won in a blatantly illegal car. Damon dropped the ball in 1995. 2001, 2002, 2004 titles won in clearly the best car in the field, 2003 title again shrouded in controversy, won by only two points over the newbie Kimi, and all this while his biggest competition being DC, Montoya and his little brother. Overrated driver? Yes. His "greatness" is simply overamplified by his impressive stats, which either Alonso, Lewis, Seb or Webber would have achieved in those dominating Ferraris, as Kimi demonstrated in 2007 by winning the WDC.

LOL.
Where is your proof that Benetton was illegal in 1994?

With better races, he can definitely outclass Michael, as he did last year.

He has been slower in races, faster in qualifying.

athletes even as old as 48 have done pretty well in other sports.

F1 is not "other sports".
Sure you can be great at darts even at 60, but F1 is a different kind of sport.

The only reason he held up Lewis at Monza was because his Mercedes wasn't running the DRS wing, and Lewis' Mclaren was, and hence Lewis couldn't get in the slipsteam anywhere else on the track but in the DRS zones. On other parts of the track he was blocking like a bitch, and the FIA had to warn him for that. And even when Lewis did get in the slipstream on the start/finish straight, the way his engine was set up, kept hitting the rev limiter much before Michael did. It's just simple stuff if you paid more attention. Just don't be like other Michael fanboys, they have an orgasm anytime he's anywhere near the top or mixing it with the big boys, and every other "detail" is conveniently ignored.

MS was teaching a nice lesson to Hamilton at Monza and such blocking should be part of racing. Why bother racing if you just have to give up your place to the guy behind you?
That FIA has moved in to ban such racing only makes me less of an f1 fan. I have missed the last few races and have had zero interest in what is happening in F1 nowadays.

[Rollo]

And he denied crashing with Levy into Jupiter in 1994*

*Obscure science reference and pun!

[Mark]

And he denied crashing with Levy into Jupiter in 1994*

*Obscure science reference and pun!

Hardly obscure!!

[The Black Knight]

Schumi is and always will be one of the all time greats. The people that use his lack of pace to Rosberg at his age now to slam his past achievements are just the same people that didn't like him winning at Ferrari. Most of them are probably British.

Schumacher is in the top 3 of all time. You don't win 7 championships by luck alone, you win it through a combination of luck and sheer brilliance.

[ioan]

Schumacher is overrated IMO. Thats about it.

Murray Walker would disagree. But then again what does he know about F1?

[i_max2k2]

Schumi is and always will be one of the all time greats. The people that use his lack of pace to Rosberg at his age now to slam his past achievements are just the same people that didn't like him winning at Ferrari. Most of them are probably British.

Schumacher is in the top 3 of all time. You don't win 7 championships by luck alone, you win it through a combination of luck and sheer brilliance.

+1

Murray Walker would disagree. But then again what does he know about F1?

Truly, after Schumi's retirement in 2006 there was an interview clipping and he was asked to rate between Senna & MS. I wont compare both drivers, to me they represent the very best of F1, neither ahead nor behind.

[i_max2k2]

Jackie Stewart has got 3 WDC's and he wouldn't agree, but then again it does make me wonder whether or not he would take this thread alot more seriously than I have.

Not saying Jackie Stewart has less credibility, but as a person travelling with the F1 circle for those many years, and seeing drivers race after race as closely as Murray Walker did, I certainly dont think Stewart saw as much.

[Malbec]

Regarding the Benetton in 1994 and TC, IIRC they were found to have it in the software of their launch control but claimed they didn't use it. The FIA couldn't prove otherwise.

I watched the 'Senna' film with the extra interviews a few days ago. I was struck by the description of the '94 Benetton especially by Ron Dennis who normally words things very carefully. I expected him to hedge but he talked about the Benetton cheating with the TC as being fact, not alleged.

[ioan]

Jackie Stewart has got 3 WDC's and he wouldn't agree, but then again it does make me wonder whether or not he would take this thread alot more seriously than I have.

Jackie has always been very subjective, or should I say heavily biased?

[ioan]

Regarding the Benetton in 1994 and TC, IIRC they were found to have it in the software of their launch control but claimed they didn't use it. The FIA couldn't prove otherwise.

I watched the 'Senna' film with the extra interviews a few days ago. I was struck by the description of the '94 Benetton especially by Ron Dennis who normally words things very carefully. I expected him to hedge but he talked about the Benetton cheating with the TC as being fact, not alleged.

Does this mean that Ron had the proof but ate it? Or was he just being himself? Cause if he would have had the proof he wouldn't have kept it for himself.