Senna...a sportsman ?

[Sonic]

Very well put, if I may say so.

Yes you may say.

[Garry Walker]

.One could also mention Estoril in 1988, a move on Senna's part that caused some degree of outrage at the time, because it was just not deemed to be 'the done thing'.

Only because Prost is a crybaby, who forgot that he tried to force Senna to the grass at the start of the same GP, but Senna was not going to be intimidated.
Estoril was a harmless move, I have seen as dangerous moves done in races that have gotten little attention, because simply they were not committed by Senna (or schumacher for that matter).

That manoeuvre was blown out of proportion because Prost spat out his dummy and threw his toys out the pram.

Schumi did the same thing to his own brother at the Nurburgring (2003?) and I personally found nothing wrong with it.

My estimation of Massa went up when he decided to overtake in Fuji last year inbetween Webber and pitwall/pitlane exit

Agreed on all counts.

Which probably shows that it had become acceptable in the interim.

Why shouldnt it be acceptable? They are racing for victory, not drinking tea and saying "after you please." They are supposed to make passing difficult for others.

When I race go-karts against my friends, for fun, I see nothing wrong with forcing someone on the grass or giving him an option to either lift off or go into tyres. It is competition and one must give his all to win. Sure, someone might have a problem with that and say I am too hard and it is just for fun, but hey, those people probably will not be winning. Also, if someone pulls a move like that on me, I have no problem with it, because I understand why he does it.

[Jag_Warrior]

Oh yes, very clever....did you think of that yourself or did Mummy help you?

It was Mummy. Your Mummy. She rolled over and told me that you'd probably find that humorous. I guess she was right. She knows her little man, eh?

[BDunnell]

When I race go-karts against my friends, for fun, I see nothing wrong with forcing someone on the grass or giving him an option to either lift off or go into tyres. It is competition and one must give his all to win. Sure, someone might have a problem with that and say I am too hard and it is just for fun, but hey, those people probably will not be winning. Also, if someone pulls a move like that on me, I have no problem with it, because I understand why he does it.

It certainly wasn't deemed acceptable in the 1950s, when I think the desire to win was just as strong as it has ever been. Giuseppe Farina was seen as overly aggressive by some. Stirling Moss considered Roy Salvadori to be a dirty driver. The reason this was commented upon was because, again, it wasn't the done thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against aggressive racing, but there is acceptable aggression and unacceptable aggression. Alonso's pass of Schumacher at the 130R at Suzuka in 2005 was potentially very dangerous, but perfectly acceptable; personally, I don't think the incidents I've cited involving Senna were. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

[Sonic]

Wow! Getting a bit heated in here.

Anywho, completely agree with you a line must be drawn somewhere. In my own experience I would find nothing wrong with sweeping in front of another driver to block and defend my corner but I refused to do the same if a car was already alonside. I once saw two drivers side by side at donnington coming under the dunlop bridge, driver a leaning over on driver b forcing him up to the grass - this IMO was ok, but driver a was not satisfied pushing further over until driver b had no choice but to lift or run off the track. As it happened driver b kept his foot in, got on the grass and shunted at the essess.

For me the line is crossed if another driver is forced off the track or has to brake/swerve to avoid the same thing.

It was Mummy. Your Mummy. She rolled over and told me that you'd probably find that humorous. I guess she was right. She knows her little man, eh?

Well, since my mother has been dead for 18 years, then you have surprised me.

Oh, look, you've tried to offend me about somebody I cared about who is dead...not quite what you intended, I suppose, because now you are the one speaking ill of the dead and I thought you were 'dead' against that?

[BDunnell]

I do hope this thread gets 'cleaned up'. Not closed, because I think there is an interesting and legitimate discussion to be had here, but cleaned up.

[BeansBeansBeans]

When I race go-karts against my friends, for fun, I see nothing wrong with forcing someone on the grass or giving him an option to either lift off or go into tyres. It is competition and one must give his all to win. Sure, someone might have a problem with that and say I am too hard and it is just for fun, but hey, those people probably will not be winning. Also, if someone pulls a move like that on me, I have no problem with it, because I understand why he does it.

Are you the IT guy from The Office?

[Sonic]

ROFL

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, since my mother has been dead for 18 years, then you have surprised me.

Oh, look, you've tried to offend me about somebody I cared about who is dead...not quite what you intended, I suppose, because now you are the one speaking ill of the dead and I thought you were 'dead' against that?

What are you, 7? Mummy. If that's not a topic you wanted out there, you should have left it alone.