Henri Toivonen

[Daniel]

Just starting up a thread to stop the Rally GB thread going off topic.

I made a statement that I felt Toivonen was somewhat overrated when compared to the drivers of the day when you compare his supposed talent to his list of wins.

What do other people think? Do you agree that he was unbeatable on all surfaces or do you think that people look back upon his a little more favourably after his tragic death in Corsica? This is not a bashing thread or anything, I think Toivonen was a good driver.

I'd like it if this didn't turn into the usual threads where Loeb is mentioned and people assume that I'm only saying these things because I think Loeb is the best because he's taken all his titles and wins....

[BDunnell]

I think Toivonen was on the cusp of real greatness when he was killed in 1986, although it would be wrong to say his wild side had disappeared completely. He was perhaps a bit lucky to win the '85 RAC, even though he drove brilliantly, for he got helped out of a ditch by Kankkunen at one point, rolled, and then took the lead on the last night after Markku Alen went off for several minutes. But he was stunning on the Monte of '86 and could (should?) have won in Sweden too. Would he have won the title in '86? No-one can answer that with any certainty, but my gut feeling is that he would have, at least without the controversy that surrounded the championship after the San Remo fiasco getting in the way.

But Toivonen remains one of the most exciting drivers I've ever seen (albeit not 'in the flesh', as it were). He wasn't necessarily much quicker than other drivers in the same equipment, as was proved at Opel where Rohrl, Vatanen and Jimmy McRae were often able to match him in the Ascona and Manta 400s, but he was so good to watch. The footage of him and Vatanen - the other most dramatic driver to watch in his heyday - in their Rothmans Mantas on the 1983 1000 Lakes is absolutely stunning.

In summary, definitely the greatest lost talent I can think of in the WRC, and 1986 is the biggest 'what if'.

[Josti]

There was always a buzz, a air of respect and excitement when you knew his car was approaching. It's hard to explain but once he passed by you knew you had just witnessed sheer brillance and genius behind the wheel of the Sunbeam or Manta or 911 or whatever he was driving.

Firstly to quote noel157 from the other thread,

From the loads of video material I've seen of him, this comment suits perfectly. He was also a very pleasant and reguraly funny guy in front of the camera.

In my opinion, he was defenitly in his prime at the time of his death, so I'm not surprised he's still a hyped driver. The era and consequences afterwards also play a role. I don't think he's overrated, but calling him a hero or the greatest driver ever is a bit too much I guess. However, I have no doubt he could have proved that.

But still, I can't really judge having not been able to seem him live. But video footage certaintly made me a fan.

[A.F.F.]

I had the pleasure watch him live on stages. I never forget his performance at Rally of the 1000 Lakes with 037. I actually almost was seen on that footage when he did dive in the ditch and people helped him out

I never saw him live behind the wheel of Delta S4 though. But I do think he was exeptionally talented driver who could master all surfaces and probably would have been really fast on track too, should he have made a career out of it.

I'm not ashamed to call him my hero out of all drivers. Simply because he was that good.

[noel157]

Got to agree with above.

Full text of my post on the other thread

I was lucky to see Henri Toivonen many times and there was something about him that made him stand out from his contemporaries, an aura or something. I can only compare it to McRae's early years. There was always a buzz, a air of respect and excitement when you knew his car was approaching. It's hard to explain but once he passed by you knew you had just witnessed sheer brillance and genius behind the wheel of the Sunbeam or Manta or 911 or whatever he was driving.

[BDunnell]

I had the pleasure watch him live on stages. I never forget his performance at Rally of the 1000 Lakes with 037. I actually almost was seen on that footage when he did dive in the ditch and people helped him out

And his charge to fourth after that, scrapping with Grundel's Peugeot, was quite something as well, wasn't it?

I think he was exeptionally talented driver who could master all surfaces and probably would have been really fast on track too, should he have made a career out of it.

Indeed. There was a feature about this in MotorSport a few years ago, in which Eddie Jordan said he was one of the best drivers he ever had in his team (including its F1 days), and the late Will Hoy, as good a touring car driver as you could ever find in the early 1990s, said that Toivonen was the best rally man he ever saw in circuit racing.

[Brother John]

I'd like it if this didn't turn into the usual threads where Loeb is mentioned and people assume that I'm only saying these things because I think Loeb is the best because he's taken all his titles and wins....

So you think you can say what you want on the forum and we not?
You start again about Loeb here because you think he is the best!
Do we have to read that everywhere that you are Citroën + Loeb supporter + anti Ford! There existed already rally and top drivers before your time.
Titles and wins OK, but he will never be remind then a lot of other drivers

Originally Posted by A.F.F.
I had the pleasure watch him live on stages. I never forget his performance at Rally of the 1000 Lakes with 037. I actually almost was seen on that footage when he did dive in the ditch and people helped him out

I also had the pleaure to watch him live. He was GREAT! mokin:

[Daniel]

So you think you can say what you want on the forum and we not?
You start again about Loeb here because you think he is the best!
Do we have to read that everywhere that you are Citroën + Loeb supporter + anti Ford! There existed already rally and top drivers before your time.
Titles and wins OK, but he will never be remind then a lot of other drivers

Hey Brother John, don't go and touch that electric fence over there ->

I said lets not make this a thread about Loeb and what do you go and do?

[rx-guru]

Grand driver, great loss! One of the very few to hurl a Porsche 911 to its very limits. Loved him most in the Rothmans Porsche 911 SC RS.

[BDunnell]

Grand driver, great loss! One of the very few to hurl a Porsche 911 to its very limits. Loved him most in the Rothmans 911 SC RS.

Something few may remember about that time is that when Toivonen was injured in 1984, a young Juha Kankkunen had a brief outing in one of those 911s on the Manx International (his second British appearance of the year, as he'd deputised for Per Eklund in the works Group A Toyota Corolla GT on the Circuit of Ireland.)