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  1. #31
    Senior Member garyshell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
    I have talked to today's consumer and they can't relate to this product, tomorrow, today or yesterday. They have never seen a car in a driveway or on the highway.
    Quote Originally Posted by garyshell
    You really do need to slow down and read what you are writing. Recently you asked for examples of your incoherent writing from Jose, well here lies a PERFECT example.

    Gary
    Quote Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
    It was English but I guess I missed something.

    Yep, I guess you did. Does the underlining help at all??? And we'll just let your delusion that your little chats with the fans in some way constitutes any sort of scientific survey just slide right on by.

    Gary
    "If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem." --- George Carlin :andrea: R.I.P.

  2. #32
    Senior Member garyshell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
    He maybe talking about 1994 or later when reality should have set in when the egos got really too big on their 6th brithday. From that point on they listen to nobody except themselves.

    This the formation of the cancer. Exactly which part of the history didn't you understand???

    I used to get paid in those days to plant flowers for CART and soon they didn't need them.

    Did you ever talk to fans about CART in the 1980s? I did and 9 out of 10 racing fans did not know CART but knew the names Foyt, Andretti, Mears, Sneva, Johncock, Al Unser, Danny Sullivan and Bobby Rahal all from the 500 and no where else.

    The T in CART stands for TEAMS.
    "He maybe talking about"???? Are you back to mind reading again? (Oh by the way it is "may be" not "maybe", but as an English teacher you already knew that, right?) He said the owners screwed the pooch. What else do you want to hear, besides your own incessant yammering?

    Did YOU ever conduct a REAL survey to back up your ridiculous assertion as fact that 9 out of 10 fans knew or didn't know something?

    Gary
    "If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem." --- George Carlin :andrea: R.I.P.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
    He maybe talking about 1994 or later when reality should have set in when the egos got really too big on their 6th brithday. From that point on they listen to nobody except themselves.

    This the formation of the cancer. Exactly which part of the history didn't you understand???

    I used to get paid in those days to plant flowers for CART and soon they didn't need them.

    Did you ever talk to fans about CART in the 1980s? I did and 9 out of 10 racing fans did not know CART but knew the names Foyt, Andretti, Mears, Sneva, Johncock, Al Unser, Danny Sullivan and Bobby Rahal all from the 500 and no where else.
    I really think it matter what circle of people you were in as to what these names were known from...

    There is no doubt Indy was the BIG draw - but I knew more than a few people who knew who they were in general - now granted they were "indycar" drivers - but there was still an awareness of races beyond Indy - at least in the very un-racing circle of people I knew.... for example- more than a few people thought it was cool the same cars that ran at Indy on the streets of Long Beach...... since I was a teenager there were more than a few people who talked about how cool it would be to race through the streets of philadelphia... when the race came to the meadowlands in 1984 there was buzz even in south jersey....

    I am not questioning the role of the Indy 500 as the pinnacle of the sport and the pinnacle by a wide margin - but i think the rest of the series was much healthier in its hey-day than it is given credit for now in the wake of the going public/CCWS fiasco.... If nothing else, the rest of the series bought the drivers of the Indy 500 closer to the masses - it was a very synergistic relationship and the entire sport grew....

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyshell
    Yep, I guess you did. Does the underlining help at all??? And we'll just let your delusion that your little chats with the fans in some way constitutes any sort of scientific survey just slide right on by.

    Gary
    They--Means Today's consumer.
    have never seen---Not viewed or haven't seen
    a car---- Since we are talking about OPEN WHEEL racing and the things driven in Open Wheel racing are cars one must expect a person to use logic.


    in a driveway or on the highway.--- Places were today's consumers see car that they drive.

    Would this help? They have never seen a Dallara/G-Force/Lola/Reynard/Swift/March/Penske in a driveway or on the highway.

    Nitpicking or not following along.

    Notice I rarely post to you because I do not want to have anything to do with you. Sorry this is why.


  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris R
    I really think it matter what circle of people you were in as to what these names were known from...

    There is no doubt Indy was the BIG draw - but I knew more than a few people who knew who they were in general - now granted they were "indycar" drivers - but there was still an awareness of races beyond Indy - at least in the very un-racing circle of people I knew.... for example- more than a few people thought it was cool the same cars that ran at Indy on the streets of Long Beach...... since I was a teenager there were more than a few people who talked about how cool it would be to race through the streets of philadelphia... when the race came to the meadowlands in 1984 there was buzz even in south jersey....

    I am not questioning the role of the Indy 500 as the pinnacle of the sport and the pinnacle by a wide margin - but i think the rest of the series was much healthier in its hey-day than it is given credit for now in the wake of the going public/CCWS fiasco.... If nothing else, the rest of the series bought the drivers of the Indy 500 closer to the masses - it was a very synergistic relationship and the entire sport grew....
    When they went away from tracks with history and went to the Meadowlands was because they wanted to go into the NYC market. The show lost fist fulls of money and CART when it was done moved on.

    The ARS Series over the CART B was a fatal mistake. The concept of bring drivers, car owners and mechanics into the CART family was flawed because it cost 40% of a CART budget for 20% of the money. Once again it broke those wanting to play.

    CART from 1979 on left miles and miles of bones of the people that took from and left beside the road. What broke them was the history as nobody wanted to play with them as they could not be trusted.

    Sport grew? In 1995 a TNN Rockingham race had a higher rating than the first 3 CART races. Nobody had the The Nashville Network. When it came out Adam Saal said it was just a clitch and meant nothing. That year, NASCAR out did CART and CART was on ABC and NASCAR was on 6 networks. Only Indy was a winner.

    No we can look back with Rose Colored glasses at the thought of what once was but us in the trenches and in the stands and in some cases behind the scenes saw the real stuff. It wasn't something that rose colored glasses could correct.

  6. #36
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    I cannot speak to the entire business model of CART and I know the Meadowlands was a bust - but I can speak to the fan interest in the diverse offerings of CART - at least for a time....

    Generally speaking, I agree with your point on all of this - I just tend to think that AOWR has survived since the 1920's (the dawn of the automotive age) in spite of itself not because of any great vision, leadership or virtue. I think CART was a continuation of that tradition and that while it may have had different movers and shakers , it was not all that different from the past and it does not appear as though the IRL has done significantly better job - it is just at a different point of the success/failure arc right now.

    I would say the lone example of prolonged success in AOWR has been Tony Hulman/IMS from 1946-1977 - but obviously upon his passing the respect he commanded did not pass to his successors and here we are today.....

    I think it is fair to argue that the Indy 500,CART, and AOWR peaked together somewhere around ( I am picking a fairly random date - move it either way 3 years) 1985. The spin and win was spectacular and a "made for media" event. The cars were fast and pretty. There were still remnants of some diversity(albeit fleeting by 1985). The names were familiar. The world was not yet over- saturated by cable TV and the internet and extreme sports. In that year they were still pretty big fish in the sports entertainment pond. Since then the "pond" has been growing much faster than the AOWR fish and the pond is very crowded with other fish roughly the same size or larger.

    Anyway, it seems like everyone wants to take side between Indy vs. CART vs. USAC vs. IRL - as far as I am concerned they have all been managed very poorly with few exceptions......

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris R
    I cannot speak to the entire business model of CART and I know the Meadowlands was a bust - but I can speak to the fan interest in the diverse offerings of CART - at least for a time....
    Yes and most shows were busts like Las Vegas and such but no one saved the promoter, they just moved on. When they ran out of promoters they had to prop them up and this caused money to fly away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris R
    Generally speaking, I agree with your point on all of this - I just tend to think that AOWR has survived since the 1920's (the dawn of the automotive age) in spite of itself not because of any great vision, leadership or virtue. I think CART was a continuation of that tradition and that while it may have had different movers and shakers , it was not all that different from the past and it does not appear as though the IRL has done significantly better job - it is just at a different point of the success/failure arc right now.
    Actually 70,000 at a Board track was an accomplishment as the roads getting their were bad.

    Once the Car owners set the rules the game was up. Waldo's number one rule is: It is the job of all car owners to eliminate competition. With that we turn over the rules to the people wanting to eliminate competition. Flawed from the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris R
    I would say the lone example of prolonged success in AOWR has been Tony Hulman/IMS from 1946-1977 - but obviously upon his passing the respect he commanded did not pass to his successors and here we are today.....
    It was good but not great. There has always been this disconnect with the people, yes the cars look cool as models but they never saw one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris R
    I think it is fair to argue that the Indy 500,CART, and AOWR peaked together somewhere around ( I am picking a fairly random date - move it either way 3 years) 1985. The spin and win was spectacular and a "made for media" event. The cars were fast and pretty. There were still remnants of some diversity(albeit fleeting by 1985). The names were familiar. The world was not yet over- saturated by cable TV and the internet and extreme sports. In that year they were still pretty big fish in the sports entertainment pond. Since then the "pond" has been growing much faster than the AOWR fish and the pond is very crowded with other fish roughly the same size or larger.
    1985 is the year and the hand writing was Bill Elliott pulling into Victory Lane on Labor Day Weekend and getting $1,000,000. There was miles of news and it remained that way while CART faded from the headlines even though Al beat Al Jr by one point, nothing gained and all was lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris R
    Anyway, it seems like everyone wants to take side between Indy vs. CART vs. USAC vs. IRL - as far as I am concerned they have all been managed very poorly with few exceptions......
    Without a doubt. A dictator is needed otherwise the inmates run the prison. Old old man France talked about that 40 plus years ago. "Don't like what we are doing there is ARCA, IMCA and USAC to run, otherwise you do what we say."

    See there has been many great experiments tried over the years and all of them haven't worked in the long run. In my day, there were many car owners concerned with the direction of CART and they all left. You win with ADDITION and LOSE with Subtraction.

    Oh well, such is life.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyshell
    Did YOU ever conduct a REAL survey to back up your ridiculous assertion as fact that 9 out of 10 fans knew or didn't know something?

    Gary
    Ten fans wearing Rubeware in a Bar in a town were 7 Indy car drivers came from and only 1 knows about CART and were two of the seven drivers were racing. How REAL do you want it?

    Done yammmering with you for good. Thank you and good bye.

    http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...d.php?t=125602

    English for you....

  9. #39
    Senior Member garyshell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyshell
    Did YOU ever conduct a REAL survey to back up your ridiculous assertion as fact that 9 out of 10 fans knew or didn't know something?

    Gary
    Quote Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
    Ten fans wearing Rubeware in a Bar in a town were 7 Indy car drivers came from and only 1 knows about CART and were two of the seven drivers were racing. How REAL do you want it?
    Just as I suspected. The answer was no.

    Gary
    "If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem." --- George Carlin :andrea: R.I.P.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter
    Twenty years of great racing, heavy sponsor involvement, fan interest, high profile drivers and the second best OW series in the world?
    Just what I was thinking!

    Mercedes against Ford against Honda against Toyota at the peak, with Reynard against Lola against Penske against Eagle (and Swift? don't remember if Penske, Eagle and Swift all ran at the same time), and Goodyear against Firestone (or was it Bridgestone?).

    Most any automotive, beer (and tobacco), and many household products plastered on the cars at the same time.

    Pre-qualifying at several of the races (half of them, one year, really!), with teams going home because they didn't make the show at a race other than Indy.

    The good old days, sniff!

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