what about the USA WRC rallies taken place in '86-'88?

[Maui J.]

Not sure who did that but had someone offered us the money they could probably have bought the car on the spot. It went to the crusher about six months later.

To the crusher! No way! What a shame for a winning WRC car.

Great to have another WRC event winner on the forum.
Doug and Pentti... world bloody famous around here.

[Mickey T]

At the same time didn't that poster also point out that the ARC is not healthy right now either, even with their more geographically favorable structure they have very real obstacles to attempt to overcome due in large part to size.

that's not what i said at all. i said the ARC was at a low ebb right now, but that the distances involved in competing in the championship have remained more or less unchanged for 30 years.

in that 30 year period there have been cracking good cycles (the last realistically finished at the end of 2004) and lower cycles.

the difficulties in the ARC are all management and politics related, not distance related.

my gut feel would be that the US doesn't currently justify a national championship - that pursuing a national championship is building a tower on sand.

it needs strong, strong state and club championships beneath that (both of which are strong in Australia) before it can stretch its friendships with the kind of national championship you're insisting that you have.

without the solid bedrock of rallying diehards, you will just burn out the few volunteers and competitors in a chronic boom-bust cycle.

Maybe the national championship should be consolidated to be more competitor friendly until there are sustainable legs underneath it?

[L5->R5/CR]

that's not what i said at all. i said the ARC was at a low ebb right now, but that the distances involved in competing in the championship have remained more or less unchanged for 30 years.

My apologies, I combined what you said with some other viewpoints and then combined them as yours. I went back and re-read your posts and I apologize for grossly overstating the point you were making about distance.
That statement should have read "didn't that poster point out that the ARC isn't always that healthy".

Then comments relating to size and the fact that there are still some teams that are considered to be contenders for the championship that very much struggle to over come the travel.

in that 30 year period there have been cracking good cycles (the last realistically finished at the end of 2004) and lower cycles.

Sounds familiar!

the difficulties in the ARC are all management and politics related, not distance related.

The distance argument has been overstated, especially in this thread (and especially by me). Distance just compounds a lot of the other problems with the environment that rally operates in and has created for itself (unstable rules, problems with insurance (which make our entry fees very distorted), and many others all are magnified by the issues of distance and travel.

my gut feel would be that the US doesn't currently justify a national championship - that pursuing a national championship is building a tower on sand.

it needs strong, strong state and club championships beneath that (both of which are strong in Australia) before it can stretch its friendships with the kind of national championship you're insisting that you have.

without the solid bedrock of rallying diehards, you will just burn out the few volunteers and competitors in a chronic boom-bust cycle.

Maybe the national championship should be consolidated to be more competitor friendly until there are sustainable legs underneath it?

You are probably right in that the US does not exactly justify a national championship. The regional championships aren't incredibly strong and there is a very real generational gap in rally organizing structures. Many of the national championship class not only have a couple of "contenders" but a couple of teams that make enough events to qualify.

Part of the issue we are dealing with is that for a variety of reasons we have a very distorted structure. Far too much has been invested in the past in developing a national championship to the point that without radical change we are stuck with the idea. Mix in some interested sponsors, interested rich guys that want to travel and be recognized for it (I mean what I am inferring here), and events that would like to mix in the prestige of being a "National Championship Round" and we are stuck with the idea of a national championship, whether it is healthy or not.

Heck, except a select few in the US, it is commonly shared that our championship, if it is to be a championship, should be only 6 events, if that. You don't really get much with a championship of 9 poorly attended events...

Have you seen the movie Big? Rally in the US is kind of like a 6 foot tall 6 year old. There is a lot of very uneven growth and some real development gaps.

[janvanvurpa]

My apologies, I combined what you said with some other viewpoints and then combined them as yours. I went back and re-read your posts and I apologize for grossly overstating the point you were making about distance.
That statement should have read "didn't that poster point out that the ARC isn't always that healthy".

Then comments relating to size and the fact that there are still some teams that are considered to be contenders for the championship that very much struggle to over come the travel.




Sounds familiar!



The distance argument has been overstated, especially in this thread (and especially by me). Distance just compounds a lot of the other problems with the environment that rally operates in and has created for itself (unstable rules, problems with insurance (which make our entry fees very distorted), and many others all are magnified by the issues of distance and travel.





You are probably right in that the US does not exactly justify a national championship. The regional championships aren't incredibly strong and there is a very real generational gap in rally organizing structures. Many of the national championship class not only have a couple of "contenders" but a couple of teams that make enough events to qualify.

Part of the issue we are dealing with is that for a variety of reasons we have a very distorted structure. Far too much has been invested in the past in developing a national championship to the point that without radical change we are stuck with the idea. Mix in some interested sponsors, interested rich guys that want to travel and be recognized for it (I mean what I am inferring here), and events that would like to mix in the prestige of being a "National Championship Round" and we are stuck with the idea of a national championship, whether it is healthy or not.

Heck, except a select few in the US, it is commonly shared that our championship, if it is to be a championship, should be only 6 events, if that. You don't really get much with a championship of 9 poorly attended events...

Have you seen the movie Big? Rally in the US is kind of like a 6 foot tall 6 year old. There is a lot of very uneven growth and some real development gaps.

Jeeeeezuz H. Krist a post from Kevin I agree with heartily.
Such is the focus on the "Championship" that in the late 90s we had a "National Champignon" in our "Production" class who was chiding a very fast friend (Who incidentally
just won Overall in our season opener the "Doo Wop Rally" in his Volvo 240 turbo which i supplied most of the parts for) and saying "Well maybe when you've around a while and earned some credibility....."
Now this "Champion" is blabbing how he's a "National Champion yet his record was a interestingly consistent one, the boy was second to last OA on every event, and better still, second to last on EVERY STAGE except 2-3 in the entire season.
When gently prodded about his audacity, his answer was "I had a plan and I drove tactically every stage of the whole season."

Americans more than any other people I have been around like simple solutions, and the "simple solution" for the perennial low number of participants and lack of interest has never been to try and recruit HUNDREDS more cars and crews and in the heat of MORE competition, develop BETTER drivers and generate interest in the sort of person who relishes hard battles, the "Solution" has been "We need___________ TV star" or "We need a WRC event....." and then miraculously, "Then things will get the recognition "we" deserve and then things will TAKE OFF!!"
The current solution is "Travis and Ken".

MickeyT,
you hit the nail on the head there with the "worker burn-out" (the rllay scene in the North West virtually collapsed after the Olympus WRC years with SCCA "Pro-Rally" events drawing as few as 13 enties in 88-89) and the strongly cyclic nature and how the US lacks even the most rudimentary club structure and and from the "Federation" side formerly SCCA, now the private corporation "Rally America", the answers have been the same wishing for a 'saviour' scenario.

It seems obvious that "The Next Big Deal" idea has not worked and currently is not working, yet suggestions that revising where effort be directed are met with scorn and contempt. Suggestions that we might TRY to learn from those countries with solid, broad based rally programs such as Finland with their enormously popular GroupF series are met with the inevitable American response "This ain't Yoor-up".
The future seems very grim here.

[Zeakiwi]

Aloha
I recall the comment when a Pacific North West local was told the (wrc) rally was being held in the area. He replied 'Was it a Democrat or Republican rally ?'
Both the late 'Possum' Bourne (former swrt driver) and Neil Allport (Ralliart NZ) contested the 1986 US event. Obviously an important learning experience for both in contesting a rally far from their bases.
The 88 video is notable for the amount of dust and the first appearance of the Mitsubishi VR4 in four wheel steer form (?)

If rally cars have limited appeal in the USA perhaps some rally tyres could be put on a Nascar and the track could run into the infield over a big jump before the car rejoins the circuit. The IROC series used to be a great watch.

Zeakiwi