Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
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Originally Posted by SGWilko
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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2":26kq5to6][quote="N. Jones
I think the difference between Webber and Vettel is the car, not their talent.
:erm: :confused: :crazy:
I suspect the car is suited to Seb's driving style. Remember also that Mark is not the sveltest of pilots......[/quote:26kq5to6]
They both got 4 wheels, and engine and a steering wheel. To quote Martin Lawrence, "what the problem is?" :p:
These drivers do have acquired tastes where handling and set up is concerned though. Red Bull will naturally support the driver who is most likely to succeed however and it's obvious Vettel is their man. He's had the emotional support of the team since at least 2010, so it's a fair assumption to consider the design cater for his needs primarily when preparing the car. Webber leaves the sport with a decent amount of success though and the knowledge that on his day, even Vettel couldn't match him. Rare, but a nice achievement nonetheless. :)
Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
Yeah I know, but at the end of the day they are professionals, the world's elite (supposedly) and the cars are the same besides their personal chosen setup choices for each race :)
Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Yeah I know, but at the end of the day they are professionals, the world's elite (supposedly) and the cars are the same besides their personal chosen setup choices for each race :)
We as fans don't know how tense the working environment is within the team though. Webber is a world class racing driver, I don't think anybody can have any doubts about that. You don't have a career in F1 as long as he's had if you don't get the job done with the tools available. Nobody expects Mark to beat Vettel over the course of a season. He's 10 years older than his team mate and past his peak in F1 terms. However its clear his relationship with Red Bull is not as lovely as Vettel's. Red Bull's priority is to win both titles and they make no secret of the fact they support Seb in regards to the drivers title. They have to because he brings the results. Webber has a good car to compete, however I don't think he gets his way in regards to where the team go in development and feel he is driving a car designed around Vettel's needs but adapted for his. For many drivers that is a compromise. That is speculation by myself of course, but its how I read it.
Having the emotional support of the team is a very important factor IMO. Just look at McLaren in 2007 where both drivers had a car designed for neither of them, but nonetheless equal machinery all season long. Alonso fell out with the team and their emotional support went to Hamilton. It resulted in arguably the best driver in the sport, a double World Champion finishing behind his team mate in the World Championship that year. A tense atmosphere can have a significant effect on a drivers campaign IMHO. :)
Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
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Originally Posted by henners88
a double World Champion finishing behind his team mate in the World Championship that year.
Sorry to jump in here, mate, but 109 points to 109 points is not finishing behind. And please don't start with "He had more second place finishes"...... :erm:
Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
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Originally Posted by kfzmeister
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Originally Posted by henners88
a double World Champion finishing behind his team mate in the World Championship that year.
Sorry to jump in here, mate, but 109 points to 109 points is not finishing behind. And please don't start with "He had more second place finishes"...... :erm:
I wasn't trying to discredit Alonso but the simple fact is Hamilton finished ahead that season in the final standings. They scored the same number of points but unfortunately in the Formula One World Championship they can't allow drivers to share championship places, therefore they couldn't both finish second. It went down to finishing positions and in the final standings for the 2007 season it ranks Raikkonen 1st, Hamilton 2nd, and Alonso 3rd. If you disagree with that, please suggest something I've missed :)
It was a pretty insignificant point concerning the thread really.
Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
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Originally Posted by henners88
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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Yeah I know, but at the end of the day they are professionals, the world's elite (supposedly) and the cars are the same besides their personal chosen setup choices for each race :)
We as fans don't know how tense the working environment is within the team though. Webber is a world class racing driver, I don't think anybody can have any doubts about that. You don't have a career in F1 as long as he's had if you don't get the job done with the tools available. Nobody expects Mark to beat Vettel over the course of a season. He's 10 years older than his team mate and past his peak in F1 terms. However its clear his relationship with Red Bull is not as lovely as Vettel's. Red Bull's priority is to win both titles and they make no secret of the fact they support Seb in regards to the drivers title. They have to because he brings the results. Webber has a good car to compete, however I don't think he gets his way in regards to where the team go in development and feel he is driving a car designed around Vettel's needs but adapted for his. For many drivers that is a compromise. That is speculation by myself of course, but its how I read it.
Having the emotional support of the team is a very important factor IMO. Just look at McLaren in 2007 where both drivers had a car designed for neither of them, but nonetheless equal machinery all season long. Alonso fell out with the team and their emotional support went to Hamilton. It resulted in arguably the best driver in the sport, a double World Champion finishing behind his team mate in the World Championship that year. A tense atmosphere can have a significant effect on a drivers campaign IMHO. :)
I can agree that team spirit is important and maybe if one driver feels unwelcome or under appreciated he may say stuff it and won't perform to the best of their ability. But we need to remember that these are very well paid individuals, the crème of the crop and they are supposed to deal with any pressure(s) that come their way. After all, they are employees and this is a business more than a sport these days.
I can understand if RBR prefer Seb over Mark as he is younger and is the more likely of the two to win championships for the team as he has proven over the last 4 seasons. But at the end of the day, they both get the same resources to work with, tha same factory etc, the difference comes down to their choice of engineers, personal managers, car setups and just how good/bad they are as drivers.
With regards to Alonso vs Hamilton. I don't think it had anything to do with a fallout with the team. I think Alonso was shocked at how quick Lewis was and that resulted in his battling and then the fallout with the team as he felt as a 2 X WDC he should have some sort of favour in the team. I think Lewis deserves a lot of credit for catching Alonso off guard with his pace and pushing the 2 X WDC to the limit in 2007. I'm sure Alonso had no inkling that young Lewis would be a match for him, let alone be able to beat him :)
Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
I can't disagree with you 555 on your points about Red Bull and the events if 2007. Seb has dominated not just on track in comparison to Mark, but also by winning over the favouritism within the team. It's what World Champions do best. He's winning because he's put himself in a position to be the teams favourite and the likes of Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc have all fine this in the past to their advantage. I do like Webber though, but he's past his best and has been for a number if years now. He can retire from F1 happy with his achievements though as many retire having never win a race. :)
Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
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Originally Posted by henners88
If you disagree with that, please suggest something I've missed :)
It was a pretty insignificant point concerning the thread really.
You're right. You're point is right on. I re-read and it makes perfect sense. My fault.
Re: Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel
Having equal equipment does not equate to equal rights.
We were racing Alonso says everything that is needed to know about 07.
It would be interesting to see what Hamilton would do in a similar situation. Oh wait, we already know. His perception of McLaren not being behind him led to Spa 2012 and Twittergate.
That was as bad as anything Alonso did in 07.
Now, the difference between Vettel and these two is clear. Sebastian has his team fully behind him, and has now.for five years. That sort of position is not gained by luck or default. That sort of position is only maintained by success and the ability to deliver it.
In that respect, it is Vettel, and not the car that is special.
If Vettel had not delivered, no way would he have the power he has.
That's what makes him special, and that is what currently makes him better than both Lewis and Fernando.
.
And believe me, as a Ferrari fan I did not enjoy typing that.