If Citröen quit, and the 2017 cars are to expensive for privateers, what is the next formula?
An R5+ hybrid?
Maybe thats the resonable economic and sporting formula.
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If Citröen quit, and the 2017 cars are to expensive for privateers, what is the next formula?
An R5+ hybrid?
Maybe thats the resonable economic and sporting formula.
Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk
Hybrid is never an economic formula. That's the most complex and complicated option You can choose.
I think hybrid is part of the next formula, but how economic it is is a different thing.
Maybe put R5 as toppclass, or an R5+, i'll bet Tänak will be spectacular in an R5 too.
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Hybrid is a politically and socially motivated option, not economically in terms of championship cost.
However the thing is that the manufacturers are willing to pay more for this politically motivated option, which tells You that the money is there. I don't think that in terms of the championship expenses we can talk simply in money figures. The motivations in the marketing activities are not purely financial and so are not the benefits.
That’s insane…it would almost double current cars price. What about Matton’s plan to get low budget hybrids? TOCA/Cosworth mild system costs only 20k per season: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...logy-btcc-2022
Figures, figures, still figures flying in the air. What they tell to you? Of course you can imagine that it's one hell of a money for anyone of us but we are not the manufacturers.
The manufacturers are involved in the process of rules creation. They know what they want and how much they are willing to invest. The hybrid WRC will be more expensive. That's no-brainer. However from the very simple fact that the manufacturers are pushing for that you can easily deduce that the money is not the problem if it's spent on something they are actually interested in.
I say let it happen. If they want it they can have it. Nobody else except the manufacturers is going to use these cars anyway so it will not affect the other classes and it will keep the sport running.
That was probably an answer to me, not to Rally Power, right?
The work of FIA is to attract the competitors, i.e. on this level the manufacturers. The manufacturers want to be involved in some sort of competition because it's long-established marketing activity which works if it's done well. By a simple logic you need to sell them a product they want to invest in - and a good product is never too expensive! Forget about figures and start to think about the bigger picture. A product which doesn't fit to the marketing strategy of the brand is too expensive even if it costs 1000 Euro per year.
You ask a question which is fundamentally wrong. You must not create a product and start to search the customers afterwards (here the competitors/manufacturers). You need to talk to the potential customers beforehand and create a product which attracts highest possible number of them. Otherwise you will fail again and again.
In 2022, the WRC is scheduled to undergo significant regulation changes. At this time, rumors are rising that Subaru will return to WRC.
On the 10th, the final day of the Central Rally Aichi and Gifu held from November 8th to 10th, the 2003 WRC champion, Petter Solberg, will be held at the main venue, Ai Hiroshi Memorial Park (Morikoro Park). Visited. A demonstration run was conducted on a Subaru WRX STI Group N model.
】 Many rally fans must have recalled Subaru's golden age in this scene, but Subaru's brave figure may be seen again at WRC. The starting point was the WRC regulation change scheduled for 2022. Subaru's WRC return plan is rekindled in line with this new vehicle regulation.
As previously reported, FIA renewed its regulations from 2022 and announced the introduction of a hybrid system. At the same time, when the vehicle size is larger than the vehicle size stipulated in the current regulations, “scaling” to reduce the size was permitted, and the introduction of a prototype car with a tubular frame was also permitted. This is a bold renewal of regulations, and the aim is to encourage new manufacturers to participate, but this change in vehicle regulations has shown interest in participating in the WRC, including Colin McRae in 1995. In addition to producing three drivers' champions, including Richard Burns in 2001, Petter Solberg in 2003, and Subaru who achieved third consecutive title in the Manufacturers category from 1995 to 1997.
According to the person concerned, Subaru seems to start investigation for WRC return, researching the cost of participation, selection of technical partners, and marketing methods.
It seems that it is still a fumbling situation, but it seems that a concrete plan has already been drawn. “In terms of promotions, the main model will be the only hybrid lineup of XV hybrids. WRC is the best tool to promote the sporting image of the hybrid,” said the person concerned. As mentioned above, scaling can be done to reduce the body size, and participation in prototype cars, that is, pure racing cars, is allowed, so SUV-based disadvantages can be spoiled.
On the other hand, regarding the selection of technical suppliers, it seems that it will depend on the future investigation, but according to one theory, M Sports, who works as Ford's satellite team, contacted Subaru personnel. If Subaru comes back in line with the changes in regulation, Subaru must be attractive to M-Sports who can't expect Ford to return to Works. On the other hand, M Sports will be the best technical partner for Subaru as long as it can make use of all the resources cultivated at Ford.
So far, I have compiled Subaru's WRC return plan based on fragmentary information. Personally, I would like to see Oliver Solberg participating in a Subaru car with the Petter Solberg Rally Team as a partner. In any case, I would like to look forward to the day when the rumors about the return to Subaru come true.
https://jp.motorsport.com/wrc/news/w...ybrid/4596580/
Sorry (and to you too, Rallypower) yes, it was meant to you, Mirek.
I get what you're saying for the most part, but, like all market research, are they sure the product IS going to be attractive to the manufacturers? And I don't just mean the two current ones, I mean have they got any interest from others? If they have, why isn't there more noise about other teams joining? I would have thought that alongside FIA discussion about the new regulations, they would also communicate that there are interested parties.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on if any more Manu's are buying in to the new concept.
I am not involved so I don't know who is in talks with FIA but I know one thing for sure - much more manufacturers are potentially interested in hybrid WRC than for pure combustion ones. In the current social climate the combustion WRC cars are unfortunately dead.
So Citroen strategy was:
Cry about Hybrid technology and demand it for the future to..... immediately leave the series with its introduction.
We like to think those management moguls have it all figured out and planned when they clearly dont.
Kinda like VW, who is very vocal about it and when they are asked if they will return, no no way. I mean who are they to push when they are not around. Manus should sign a contract for this regs for 3 years at least, so FIA would be assure to introduce this without worrying of manus leaving before even start.
Kinda like World RX, there was like 9 of them, and when the time really come no one was really around. And I doubt it will be anything different when it really start this Project E era.
Who knows, maybe Opel motorsport isn`t considered as a part of PSA motorsport...they were quite sufficient on their own...
Just a thought.
When will new rules actually be finalised/published so manufacturers can start work?
I see a good chance for Skoda coming back with a hybrid WRC
- 2022 should coincide nicely with the early years of the next generation Fabia
- if it's true they signed Oliver Solberg for three years i doubt he would want to spend three years in R5 cars
- They are now launching lots of new hybrid cars under the iV brand, including the new Octavia this week
Of course it was thought they might come back before when they signed all those drivers in 2018 but that came to nothing so won't get my hopes up too much..
Current WRC rallies are at a very high level, maybe higher than all the years since 1987 that I have been watching.
True, the previous generation without the electronic differential offered more sideways sliding, but current cars show their extra speed and they are very well supplemented by the many R5s.
Any change must be very carefully thought, as any spoiling of the image will be harmful or even dangerous, with so few manufacturers participating.
Personally I would like to see the continuation of the present form. And, surely, rally cars must sound like rally cars.
It makes no sense at all to me. I think the WRC has far better media coverage than WEC. Even their main race in June doesn't get as much mainstream coverage as you'd think; especially when it clashes with F1.
I have seen a comment somewhere, and it sort of makes sense; PSA/ Peugeot let the ACO down when they pulled the plug on their 2012 WEC programme whilst testing at Sebring shortly before the first round; as opposed pulling out of the WRC with Citroen who still had Loeb, and he was a big marketing factor.
Now for the new Hybrid Hypercars, they want as many Manufacturers as they can get. This time the PSA group have possibly decided that the WEC will take precedence with Peugeot. Citroen & Ogier hasn't the same marketing pull as Loeb did. Who knows??
PSA always said they could return to the WEC, as long new rules allowing a huge cost cut would be presented: https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-ne...rn-to-le-mans/
The WEC is mainly about LM and LM is still a huge name, not only in Europe but also in the US and Asia, markets where PSA is interested to go or expand. Besides, as I’ve said the other day, PSA seems to be drifting from full in-house programs to partnerships with external companies, allowing them to share different knowhows and save on overall costs, something clearly not easy to find in the WRC.
No matter how sad it’s to know Citroen will leave in 2022, as a rally fan I can only thank them for being in the WRC for almost 20 years and continuing to support the sport with their costumeur programs. Salut!
Yes but PSA is a French manufacturer and the biggest pull in WEC for them is Le Mans.
Ive said it before and been shot down in flames, but the Wrc is too niche. Le Mans 24hrs means a lot more to more people than rallying does, like it or not. Yes Tanak has his movie out, but how many movies are made about rallying? Other than documentaries? None.
How many films are made about Le Mans? A few, there is one just released in the cinemas now, and you can bet your life a hell of a lot more people from all walks of life have heard about it, and will go and watch it. The same can not be said about Tanak, the movie.
Back a decade or two, manufacturers used to produce cars, with a rallying connection and make special editions of them.
We used to get cars like the Toyota Celica GT-4 Carlos Sainz, the Mitsubishi Lancer evo Tommi Makinen, the Subaru Impreza turbo Colin McRae, the Impreza RB5, and latterly the RB320 (Richard Burns) Japanese market Impreza Toshio Aria limited edition, Petter Solberg limited edition (which was just plain WR1 in my home market) and the Citroen C2 and C4 by Loeb.
Ok we can book end these with the Ford Escort Mexico, and the fairly recent Skoda Fabia Monte Carlo, but the days of having a manufacturer produce a car for the mass market with a rally drivers monika in stickers on the back of it are numbered, because rally drivers these days just don't have the notoriety that they once had.
As successful as Ogier has been, I don't see a Citroen C3 by Ogier on the horizon, or a Hyundai i30N Tanak/Neuville/Loeb/delete as applicable edition any time soon.
Exactly this, Peugeot have wanted to be back in WEC/Le Mans for a while, but while the Hybrid arms race between Audi/Porsche/Toyota was in full swing they simply couldn’t or didn’t want to afford it. To be fair the budgets that were talked about for Audi and Porsche were insane, and basically for 1 race as the others don’t have huge reach to the public.
The budget level they are talking about now for the new Hypercar class is significantly less than we hear Toyota and Hyundai are spending on WRC, so I can see the appeal for PSA, and they get the LM24 into the mix, which as has been said is a big deal for them.
Le Mans is actually perfect for showcasinf speed+consumtion combination.
I stil remember 1999 when BMW won due to fuel economy even though they were only 3rd fastest car.
I also remember 2010 where the engine of all 3 Peugeots failed.
I was just browsing through the football Euro 2020 qualification matches when I noticed huge banners of VW on one of the stadiums. Guess what was the slogan.
"Just electric"
That tells you a lot about the current European automotive. Just saying...
Absolutely. Even if combustion remains the top-selling propulsion type right now, a lot of the marketing budgets will be tipped towards full-EV. One, EVs are a big investment and manufacturers need to see a return upon that soon. Two, it makes the whole brand look 'good', or kinder, if you have made an EV.
This makes it potentially harder to justify big WRC investments for some manufacturers, as hybrid is just a halfway house. For me, regulations that cater better to privateers until electric tech and infrastructure enable flat-out rallies without compromise is a must.
We will just habe to discuss, and wish until
From Autosport: Firm regulations for the new era are expected from the FIA by the end of next month.
Mr. Herbert Diess just this week:
"“Hybridisation, electrification and digitalisation of our fleet are becoming an increasingly important area of focus. We intend to take advantage of economies of scale and achieve maximum synergies.”
Notice how Hybridisation comes first. Obviously there is some space to promote hybrid technology in the VAG group.
Today all the hype is about EVs, hybrids are yesterdays news. In this context it seems weird to go for hybrid in WRC. New rules should reflect state-of-the-art, and cars absolutely should have marketing value. Even now hybrids get much less attention than EVs, most people consider them as stop-gap solution for a time when full-electric matured. Can you imagine big manufacturers advertising hybrids in around 2025 while already now EVs are becoming new standard for modern car? Maybe today technology is just a bit raw yet, for example nobody knows how safe are batteries when cars crash, roll or endure such levels of vibration as is common in rally. So give them bit more time to develope, come in with full electrics from 2023 and continue with current ones until then.
VW was saying the same thing already last year, but that also has to do with VW strategy of largely skipping hybrids for full EV.
Anyway WRC/rallying has been behind in the current trend for last 20 years. First running turbo petrol cars when no normal cars had turbos, then switching to S2000 just about the time downsizing started and going for downsizing 2-3 years later than the industry.
Skoda launched their first hybrid only this year and have already presented two more. I think they have some marketing value for the next 5-10 years at least.
F1 is still hybrid and no sign of them going full electric yet.
Hybrids yes, full EVs no. Cars are not ready, grids are definitely not ready.
Yes, Europe is totally unprepared for full electrification of the traffic. Nothing is prepared for that and with the speed of decision-making processes in EU this will take decades.