After a disastrous 2018 season for Bottas where he got lapped in the double championship winning Mercedes car, I ask, is Bottas on the way out?
Printable View
After a disastrous 2018 season for Bottas where he got lapped in the double championship winning Mercedes car, I ask, is Bottas on the way out?
He could be, if he doesn't have a much better 2019!
Plus this:
Quote:
Billionaire Antti Aarnio-Wihuri, boss of the Finnish conglomerate Wihuri, told Ilta Sanomat newspaper that sponsoring Formula 1 has become "too expensive" for his tastes.He also admitted that Bottas' poor performance at Mercedes in 2018 contributed to the decision.
Read more: https://autoweek.com/article/formula...#ixzz5d5qH1HZL
While I think it's safe to say nobody expected him to challenge Lewis, I hope that most of us expected more. I know I did.
Overall as far as the top teams go, the under performer of 2018 IMO. When you factor for DNFs beyond a drivers control (such as Ricciardo vs Max) almost all other teams had a reasonable battle between the team mates. The Merc team had one DNF each, and Lewis just flat out trashed Bottas. To top it off, he got beat by Kimi and Max as well, who both had 3-4 car related DNFs.
At the time I thought Merc were making a smart move and finding a good supporting driver for the team. After last year, I think maybe they got it wrong.
I hope he has a better 2019. I suspect if he doesn't then Merc might not have much choice.
He will be if he repeats last season. Personally I think he will be fine.
Without the team order at the Russian GP, which forced him to give up the race win, Bottas would have finished the 2018 season with 254 points and in 3rd position, behind second-place Vettel.
Great point, but still lagging Lewis in epic fashion.
Even adjusting for Sochi, Bottas was 147 points behind Lewis, each with 1 DNF
Kimi was only 79 points behind Seb, and had 4 DNFs to Sebs 1
Ricciardo was 79 points behind Max with 8 DNFs to Max's 3
If we were to adjust for DNFs based on driver fault vs car failure, the battles in the Ferrari and RB teams get closer. Granted comparing anyone to Hamilton when he had a good season is hard, but that is still a big gap vs the other teams.
I hope he can up his game this season. If the Merc slips vs the competition, he may be a mid pack driver.
I don't see Bottas being around in 2020 (not at Mercedes anyway) but I am ready to be proven wrong. He's obviously not a bad driver but Ferrari has been doing a good job shorting the gap and Mercedes will need a more solid driver line-up if they want a shot at the WCC
Esteban Ocon acting as the Mercedes reserve or third driver, will have the sword of damocles hanging over Bottas head. If Valtteri doesn't have a much stronger 2019 season.
I’d rather have Bottas than Ocon as I think Ocon has a lot to learn especially when it comes to wheel to wheel racing. I’m still shocked by his stupidity in Brazil this year. Personally I think Mercedes should have fired Bottas this year and that they haven’t only tends me to believe that they also do not have 100% faith in Ocons race craft, otherwise I think he would have got the seat. The only reason Bottas still has a drive is that no one else of significant quality was available. Next season that’ll be different.
The Black Knight...…Ocon made a clumsy move on Verstappen at Brazil, no question about that. But, I kind of liked the fact Esteban had shown, that he wasn't willing to be intimidated by the likes of Max, and mix it up with him.
The on track clashes that Ocon had, and especially with his teammate Perez, may have given some to question his race craft, but I doubt very much that ToTo shares that view, or opinion.
Sometimes some people need to adjust to a new unexpected situation. You'd like to think progress is linear, but it mostly isn't.
Bottas was ordinary last year. There were more factors affecting his result than just underperforming.
Bottas performed better than Hamilton in 4 of the first 7 races last year. He just didn't get the results. When Vettel became a seriously challenger in the standings, this then affects the way MB treat him. His results became expendable (Same with Ferrari to Raikkonen).
Most notably this occurred in Russia. But it was like that throughout the last 2/3s of the season. Holding station behind Hamilton in Germany. Compromising his performance to affect Raikkonen at Monza.
But he has to take responsibility for the team compromising his results, because he didn't put the points on the board in the beginning of the season. 34pts behind Hamilton after Canada (Who lost the title lead) made it an easy decision for the team to compromise his performances. It's a different situation if he was closer to Ham in the points.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/r...1M5U3W,267XD,1
“Maybe his years at Williams and then the shock draft into Mercedes was something he needed to digest” – Toto Wolff
Damn right, Toto.
First race of the season, one where he has been truly outstandingly quick and faultless.
Great for him and us as spectators, but going forward I'm not expecting him to be consistant.
If I see a continuation of that form over the next 5-6 races I think only then will I consider him to be a genuine WDC contender for 2019.
So Bottas turned up this season and smashed everyone at the first race of the season, But is he safe yet? I also hear Toto is leaving Mercedes at the end of this or next season, what does this mean for Bottas?
I doubt it makes much of a difference for him. If he does a good job, he'll be retained - if he doesn't, he's out. Although we also need to keep in mind that Mercedes don't exactly have a great replacement at hand, since the obvious choice is the rather crash-prone Ocon. Unless 2019 is a complete disaster for Bottas like 2018 was -although the first signs have been rather encouraging-, I can't see Merc dropping him with or without Wolff.
Also, I think Bottas is easier to handle for Mercedes than Ocon. Bottas has already shown last year he can be a team player when asked to, Ocon's history with his team-mate Perez may cast doubts whether he would be prepared to move over if so required by his team.
Obviously it's still early days. I may very well have misinterpret what I saw, and it may be meaningless anyway. But with the reference to last year's calamity season from Bottas. I still thin there was substantial improvement from Bottas last night.
Obviously Bahrain will be remembered for Leclerc performance and misfortune. Hamilton gets another win, easing the sore backside of his fans all over the world after Albert Park.
This is what Bottas faced last night. The Ferraris and Hamilton got him in qualifying. They were better performing than him during the race, and he was struggling with his own issues and making some error.
Had this scenario occurred last year, he more than likely would've finished 4th or worse. Someone like Verstappen would've been ahead of him, and he'd have been so far out of it that he might not have taken advantage of another's mechanical failure.
But not last night. He didn't let the gap or track position completely derail his performance and result and he got 2nd.
On the surface and to most people including his critics. It was an unremarkable 2nd in his designated position of finishing behind Hamilton. But accounting for factors I've mentioned earlier, I think it was an improvement in performance on par with the win at Albert Park.
But it's only two races down. His challenge for the rest of the season (regardless of what anyone else does) is to replicate his last two races over the next 19. So we'll see.
This thread's topic is done afaic.
We now have to ask - Has Esteban Ocon already driven his last F1 race?
Bottas is a new man this season. He has met fans and teams expectations this season so far. There is a new swagger to his strides as he walks the paddock. And he has found new levels of respect for his fellow drivers as well. For the second time, he leads the driver's championship with a narrow margin of one point. But l suspect, Hamilton may be taking things easy with Bottas at the moment for whatever reason. Especially since the Ferrari pair are not in close proximity in the points. I think this may change going forward and Bottas may need to find another level to keep himself in the frame for the title as the season progresses.
Based on his current form, l have no doubt that he would find a way to be there about. But l wonder if he can sustain it to the end of the season. We generally expect him to win it or be no less than 2nd or immediately behind Hamilton. I typically support the underdog, hence, l am quietly routing for Bottas to surprise. But you never write off Hamilton, Bottas would need to produce something special to be on top this season.
What a wonderful guy that Hamilton is, letting Bottas win a couple. I was sure he would have liked to win 4 out of 4 and have all the fast lap points as well if possible. What a cynical bastard I've become.
He's not letting Bottas win, he's orchestrating a Mercedes 1-2. You see, if Hamilton scampered off into the distance and lapped the entire field (like we all know he easily could), Bottas would quickly fall prey to the Ferrari's, Red Bull's and even the Williams. Bottas needs Hamilton behind him to fend off everybody else and thereby ensure a Mercedes 1-2. Hamilton will still win when it matters. He's so fast that he can even lap his own shadow. He only loses when he chooses to.
Other little known facts about Hamilton: The first time he bowled, he scored a perfect 300. Similarly, in his first ever round of golf, he had 5 hole-in one holes for 38 under par round.
Its all true. Lewis is the most superist superstar in the world. I even named my son after him.
Bottas has been overtaken in his own thread .
There's just no fight left in him , clearly .
Sorry, I accidentally pushed the radio button, so he slowed down.
Being serious now though, I'm not sure what Bottas is doing or Lewis isn't doing this year. But he does seem to have more of a challenge in him. I was skeptical when Mercedes chose him to fill the seat, but if he keeps performing like this he's going to make a believer out of me.
I hear the cynicism in the air about Hamilton. However, everyone is bracing themselves for when the real fight between Hamilton and Bottas kicks off. The points as it stand at the moment is giving notice to Hamilton that if he do not want a repeat of 2016 where Rosberg ramped up confidence and stole the championship from under his nose, he would need to start putting in performances to put some distance between himself and Bottas.
That said, l have a feeling that Bottas is probably prepared for that. Which inevitably may spark an inhouse Mercedes battle for the championship. This might be very good for Ferrari as it did for Kimi in 2003 when Alonso and Hamilton fought each other hard at Mclaren only to lose the drivers title to Ferrrari by one point.
We know how methodical and ruthless Hamilton can be in a rivalry fight for the title. The real question is, is Bottas hard enough to do battle with Hamilton when it comes to it. It took Rosberg three seasons to get to the point where he could prevail; although under quite questionable circumstances. Can Bottas do it in two seasons? Can he stand the heat of the battle. This is what l am looking forward to see.
I like a great story, hence l am hoping that he can do something remarkable and worthy of F1 history and folklore.
He's driving the car to what it's capable of. That is what all the good drivers do.Quote:
I'm not sure what Bottas is doing
Hamilton isn't not doing anything this year. 2019 is the second best start after 4 races he's had in his career, 2015 being the best.Quote:
or Lewis isn't doing this year.
On the other hand of all his team mates, only Rosberg's first four races of 2016 season is better than Bottas' first 4 from this year.
edit: Bottas is now going toe to toe with Hamilton. If he keeps this up, Hamilton has to effectively beat himself to win the championship. How do you do that?
I'll tell you how!
Just reviewing Bottas' results. He's stepped up his game this year, but it still feels a forlorn hope he could challenge for the championship.
Since MB have been the leading team, the 133pts he's scored so far this year would be enough to lead the championship in 16 & 18, and the leading MB in 17. Of the combined 12 seasons MB drivers have had to this point since 14, Bottas' season this year is the 5th best. So there's still room for improvement despite him lifting his game. He's 29pts behind Hamilton, but he hasn't done a lot wrong. It's be hard to make up those 29pts without some adversity for Hamilton.
You analyse his season. He was going toe to toe with Hamilton til Monaco. There he qualified 2nd to Hamilton, which is the least you could do. But even though he qualified on pole in the previous 3 races, it didn't affect the race. In Monaco, qualifying 2nd and not beating Hamilton into the first corner meant he became vulnerable to a safety car period and had to back up those behind to clear the way for a double stack. This eventually lead to a clash with Verstappen and the ensuing puncture which meant he lost another position for another stop. Had he beat Hamilton to the first corner, it could've been Hamilton whose race was compromised and Bottas could've won. In hindsight, he'd have been better off qualifying on the 2nd-3rd row.
In Canada, he made the error in qualifying which contributed to his poor result. That meant he was out of position to where he should be and lost more ground in the championship to Hamilton. Had he just qualified 3rd and stayed behind Hamilton throughout the race, maybe he could've taken 2nd with the errors Hamilton was making and he could've had the win with Vettel's error and subsequent penalty.
Hamilton has had the best start after seven races an MB driver has ever had, and people will applaud him for it. Two of his wins have effectively been inherited.
If Bottas finishes second this year, people will be humdrum about it. But his best has been better than Hamilton's best so far. But sometimes, some qualifying/race performance are more important than others, and it doesn't take much for a really good overall performance to still not be good enough. That's the **** you have to avoid to win a championship.
I think Bottas is still looking good. Verstapenn and Redbull sort of screwed up his championship fight to a small extent. He has to recover from it and re insert himself into the fight proper. Canada is a Hamilton track, hence l sort expected Bottas to be behind. But he clearly had an off day and drifted further behind than he hoped. At best he should have been ahead of the Ferrari. But that is no reason to write him off. He is still in it, he just need to regain ground.
If Bottas finish second this season, he would be well appreciated for it. Anything less and he would be castigated from all quarters. He drove magnificently at start of the season. I think he would bounce back.
I expect him to win more and at least finish 2nd. But of the 14 races left I'm not sure he can get the 4+ wins over Hamilton to make up the points without some adversity for Hamilton (Which you can't rely on).
He made an error in Bahrain, and Hamilton got by which led to him winning. Hamilton slipped up a couple of times in Montreal, but Bottas wasn't there to take advantage of it. That stuff makes a difference more that a spectacular qualifying or race performance.
A couple of lock ups from Lewis in Canada when attacking Vettel with zero pressure behind him doesn’t mean he would have done the same thing had Bottas been behind him. As the posts here point out, Hamilton generally only makes these mistakes when it matters the least so I doubt he would have done the same had Bottas been behind him.
lololol
How precious can you get???
Btw, in half of Hamilton's wins in 16, he locked up and made errors. But Rosberg didn't punish him by being conservative, and he didn't get penalties (Like he should've) in other races. So your generalisation is wrong (Again).
I was hypothetically concluding had Bottas qualified behind him.But since Bottas' best in qualifying has been better than Hamilton so far. Whatever Hamilton would've done is irrelevant and it could've been Bottas that could've benefited form the penalty.
But he's given Hamilton a margin of error, when Hamilton hasn't done so for him. He has to deal with that.
Oh dear, it’s not my generalisation, it’s yours. You said Bottas was not there to capitalise. I am simply pointing out it’s unlikely Hamilton would have made those lockup’s had Bottas been there. I’n agreeing with your post just adding the point the lockups are perhaps not as relevant as you’re making them out to be.
You’re obsessed with 2016.
Mine weren't generalisation. They were Hypotheticals.
They were done so to highlight how Bottas has performed, where he's lost out and what subtle factors contribute to him losing ground.
I point out 2016 because I remember it better than other season. This season potentially could lead that way where little moments here or there could have a bigger impact on the championship than what they normally do.
Well hypothetically Hamilton wouldn’t have made those lockups were Bottas behind him and there’s no guarantee Bottas would have been able to be in such close contention anyway as he generally seems to not have Hamilton’s race pace although his qualifying has improved drastically.
Little moments didn’t decide the 2016 title, reliability did. If you remember 2016 well then you should remember that.
I remember the failing engine Rosberg had in Monaco. This meant MB enforced team orders which favoured Hamilton. That, and not getting a penalty for the same thing Vettel copped in Montreal, contributed to Hamilton's win that day . Had there been no mechanical problem for him in Monaco, Rosberg would've won easily.
Objectively, it just shows how insecure Hamilton fans like TBK are.
I brought up an hypothetical that gave the benefit of the doubt that Hamilton would've beat Bottas in qualifying had Bottas not made a mistake!
The probability was likely that Bottas might got pole of outqualified Hamilton.
But no. Hamilton wouldn't have made those errors had Bottas had been behind him, only if he was a long way behind or in front.
edit: Although even if Hamilton didn't make any errors during the race because Bottas was behind him (he made at least 2). What could've happened was that Bottas would've been just that little bit behind that he could've made the correct decision to go left, instead going right and off track limits like Hamilton did.
So my original point is made. He could've won anyway had he not screwed up his qualifying.
Rosberg was struggling with brake temperatures in Monaco 2016. Hamilton was also struggling with the same issue of brake temperatures, Hamilton simply managed his better and Mercedes ordered Rosberg to let him through so they could win. But then again, you remember this very well and your objective isn’t scewed at all.
Just like I’m sure you remember the 5 races that year where engine issues cost Hamilton points while Rosberg had a pretty much perfect season reliability wise (as near perfect as it gets anyway).
It had nothing to do with brake/tyre temperatures. You're just hanging onto that. As Ricciardo has proved you can win at Monaco in a failing car. Team orders benefitted Hamilton, otherwise he wouldn't have won.
You're not acknowledging all the factors that went in favour of Hamilton that year (More so than for Rosberg). I've already done so, and will be happy to bump the relevant threads again.
The point is that this thread is about Bottas. He's gone toe to toe with Hamilton this year, but the points gap to Hamilton is disproportionate and doesn't reflect his performance .
I'll repeat. He qualified 2nd in Monaco, which is the minimum you could expect. By not beating Hamilton off the line, this became disproportionally disadvantageous in the subsequent safety car period. He had lost more ground in the title race than he deserved.
Then in Montreal, his own error in qualifying cost him a chance of the win. It was possible to win even had he qualified 3rd, as I've demonstrated.
His best has been better than Hamilton this year. But Hamilton has a comfortable margin atm without doing anything exceptional (2 of his wins have been inherited), and this will be hard for Bottas to overcome on his own performance. It's all due to minor lapses that have been costly, as opposed to any superiority Hamilton has.
Now let's see how your insecurities come up in your next post.
It was brake issues for Rosberg and Hamilton in Monaco 2016.
Rosberg himself confirmed it as did Mercedes. Both drivers had the same issue.
You’re the one that keeps mentioning 2016 as well as Monaco that year, also claiming your memory is top dog of that season but can’t get basics right. I didn’t bring them up first, you did, so hardly my insecurities. I know reliability decided the 2016 F1 title and have zero doubt about it either.
Agreed re Bottas. Hamilton hasn’t been superior speedwise really. He has simply delivered when it matters most. One might count that as superiority though, depending on how you look at it.
Of course you think reliability decided the 2016 F1 title. You live vicariously through Hamilton due to your lack of self esteem.
Right, I'm going to have to sort this **** out. Your insecurities has clogged up this thread. I will be starting other threads so you don't ruin this one.
Brake or engine issues, it was a faulty mechanical part on Rosberg's car that meant he was forced to comply with team orders to let Hamilton through (His championship rival). Hamilton received a cheap, hollow win that day, and the final championship points flatters him.
If you want to carry on, you can do so when I start a thread about it.