Woolf vs Horner in 2019

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Toto Woolf and Christian Horner are both two of the most successful team bosses in F1 today. The only other person to achieve such success in living memory, is the FIA president Jean Todt who steered Ferrari and Michael Schumacher to five double world championships. And Sir Frank Williams of course. Woolf and Horner combined have won nine of the last 10 seasons driver and constructors world championship titles. With Woolf winning seven to Horner's four.

Since the Mercedes emergence as the team to beat in F1, Horner and Redbull have had an eight-year drought. Redbull has ever since done its ought most to stay within the top three teams. Redbull has taken its drought well showing the character of why they were multiple world champion. At least better than other teams that have tasted similar levels of success, like Williams and Mclaren.

The 2019 regulations imposed a new chassis architecture on the teams and presents us with a potential opportunity to see these two stars of F1 team management go head to head properly. If we make a rough analysis of the Mercedes and the Redbull cars, one may say the Redbull car has a superior chassis to Mercedes but the Mercedes has a superior power unit. You would be mistaken, if you think the Mercedes chassis was poor, on the contrary.

But this rough analysis would suggest that Redbull are favourites to put together the leading chassis of the 2019 season. But that is one component of the perfect package; they need a powerful engine and a very fast driver. They have Vertstapenn that is proving to have championship-winning calibre. The question mark is the engine. The Honda engine propelled Gasly to 4th at Baku with its long straights where engine power was a requisite to finish in the top six. This was an eye-opener that suggests that the Honda engine may pack enough punch to propel Redbull to another world championship title.

If this hypothesis is correct, we are in for a real treat in 2019 as we get to watch these two go head to head for the first time in potentially equally competitive cars or at least closely competitive cars. We have watched Woolf take on Arrivabene of Ferrari and won both duels in a TKO. How would the head to head between two of the most successful team bosses in F1 today turnout?

The two men are so different.
Woolf is a well-considered and eloquent speaker. He likes to take a back seat from race operations at his specially constructed observation post in the garage. Leaving the pitwall to the engineers and race strategists etc .

Horner is a fellow that does not mince words, he tells it like it is. You can like what he has to say or lump it. He likes to sit in the thick of the action and be actively involved in the decision-making process etc.

Both men are viciously competitive, though Woolf is very diplomatic about his competitiveness. Both have the mentality of a winner, hence losing is a bitter pill to take. Both are resolutely confident they can beat the other. Though Horner has suffered defeat from Woolf the last five years due to under-powered Renault engines.

Horner with two of the most exciting young drivers on the grid takes on Woolf with a seven times driver world champion and a very fast and experienced teammate in Bottas. This has all the hallmark of a cracking season; Hamilton vs Verstapenn yeah!

I have a feeling this thread will die a death but here are some other thread ideas for you... Gerri Halliwell vs Suzy Woolf style war... or maybe Red Bull teaboy vs Ferrari teaboy rap battle?

:p

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Originally Posted by Zico

I have a feeling this thread will die a death but here are some other thread ideas for you... Gerri Halliwell vs Suzy Woolf style war... or maybe Red Bull teaboy vs Ferrari teaboy rap battle?

:p

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Be kind :-)

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Originally Posted by Zico

I have a feeling this thread will die a death but here are some other thread ideas for you... Gerri Halliwell vs Suzy Woolf style war... or maybe Red Bull teaboy vs Ferrari teaboy rap battle?

:p

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Well, Well, here we are at Hungaroring and the head to head between these two highly successful team bosses is beginning to take form with Rebull giving Mercedes two bloody noses coming into this race. And it looks so close this weekend on a Mercedes track that Redbull also goes very well on. Woolf needs a worth foe, and there is no one better than Horner to give him the sort of bother that he would relish.

It is on, Woolf vs Horner.

Well at Hungary, I think RB fumbled. I said it when they didn't pit, and I'll say it again now. Though I did expect that Max would have at least some fight left when Lewis go to him, it turned out that the tire advantage was huge. Even if they had come out behind after pitting, both drivers would have had the chance to fight on fresh tires.

Hindsight is always easy, but when RB didn't respond to the pit call I thought they really dropped the ball.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Well, Well, here we are at Hungaroring and the head to head between these two highly successful team bosses is beginning to take form with Rebull giving Mercedes two bloody noses coming into this race. And it looks so close this weekend on a Mercedes track that Redbull also goes very well on. Woolf needs a worth foe, and there is no one better than Horner to give him the sort of bother that he would relish.

It is on, Woolf vs Horner.

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Well Woolfie gave Christian a bloody nose today, Outboxed, out thought. He schooled him. The teaboys rap battle ended in a stalemate btw but Gerri wore a nicer dress than Suzy this weekend . Max drove very well and probably just shades it for my driver of the weekend.

Red Bull/Honda/Verstappen being back at the front is a great to see. We just need Ferrari to get back in the mix now. Roll on battle royale No 2... or do Merc have it all in hand with their party mode? Is Lewis the real difference or do Merc still have a bit in hand in race pace?

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Originally Posted by Zico

Well Woolfie gave Christian a bloody nose today, Outboxed, out thought. He schooled him. The teaboys rap battle ended in a stalemate btw but Gerri wore a nicer dress than Suzy this weekend . Max drove very well and probably just shades it for my driver of the weekend.

Red Bull/Honda/Verstappen being back at the front is a great to see. We just need Ferrari to get back in the mix now. Roll on battle royale No 2... or do Merc have it all in hand with their party mode? Is Lewis the real difference or do Merc still have a bit in hand in race pace?

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Mercedes piled on the pressure on Redbull and gave them a taste of what Ferrari has endured the last three seasons. And they cracked as the options fizzled out as the race went on. It is interesting that they instantly blamed horsepower for their blunder. The horsepower was good enough to produce poll, so WTF are they talking about.

This race shows the possibilities available to Mercedes with a driver of Hamilton's calibre in their car. Put Bottas in Hamilton's position and this race would have been lost to Redull.

This is a delayed battle that is about to happen this season. Can Horner get the better of Wolff this season?

Could Bottas (see the writing on the wall) and pull a Rosberg? Take the fight to Hamilton which allows Max to slip into the fight?

Wolff 1 : Horner 0

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Originally Posted by F1nKS

Could Bottas (see the writing on the wall) and pull a Rosberg? Take the fight to Hamilton which allows Max to slip into the fight?

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Bottas: "To all my critics: I'm doin' the best I can already!!!"
:D

Considering that both teams will continue developing their cars this season (and how close they are already), I think this battle should be close in both the Constructors and the Drivers championships. And not just for #1. I could see Perez challenging Bottas for #3(?) in the WDC. I'm predicting Hamilton #1, Verstappen #2... er, Perez #3 and Bottas #4.

And IMO, if I'm right, Bottas will be out at Merc in 2022 and George will get that seat. My crystal ball says that Lewis will be back with the Silver/Black Arrows for 2022.

Could the battle of the team bosses get ugly at Baku, l wonder? Horner was all beams, his teeth could not be whiter, l am sure his chin hurt on sunday night as he could not stop smiling after that race. Verstappen delivered when it mattered and Perez got into the top four which helped Redbull jump ahead of Mercedes.

Wolff was philosophical but clearly seething with anger; and understandably so. For the first time since 2017 when Ferrari got close enough to bother the mighty Mercedes, Wolff finds his team in some disarray at the Monaco GP. The Mercedes pitcrew found a way to hit an all time low as they spectacularly machined Bottas' wheel nut causing the Finn to retire from second place in the race. Both team bosses are even at this point, with Horner looking more confident he can upset Wolff at the end of the season.

If Redbull run their bendy rear wing at Baku, it is clear as day that Wolff shall be matching to the stewards office to demand they take it off. I am sure Horner would not resist lodging a complaint about the Mercedes front wing either. It could be a handbag moment at Baku. This is one to watch out for he he.

I am kind of perplexed about this "bendy wing". Do you want the teams to actually "engineer" their car within a certain envelope or do you want them to copy Mercedes?

Toto has already made it clear he will take the flexi wing issue up if it appears at Baku. I really don't think it will get him anywhere short term. He is hoping he can back the FIA into the corner enough to make them change the test regs sooner. And this coming from the team that came up with DAS, yet was allowed to run it for the season.

As for the wings themselves, it's the nature of F1 to find the loopholes in the regs, and it's certainly not like it's the first time. Change will happen over time, but to protest something just to clarify the rules isn't uncommon either. DAS was a prime example. Had the FIA decided it was legal long term, other teams would surely have invested more time into it and possibly used it themselves. So Toto and the others think certain teams have found an advantage that is against the intent of the rules, and hope to change it quick enough so that those teams will obviously suffer from the new design process being limited. Being that the wings pass the tests, I don't think they will have much of a case, even if the FIA has issued new testing directives.


For Merc and Toto, not being on top is unfamiliar territory these days. I'm sure the strong showing from RB has to be in his head. To me personally I think the flexi wings saga is simply him showing some weakness. The regs and wings have been around for a while, and now he is trying to slow his competition down by any means possible.

How Sky sport took the thunder out of the Mercedes threats about the flexi-wing. It turns out the Mercedes rear wing was flexing too. That really cracked me up.

Those wings swing more than a herrings tail , don't they ?

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

How Sky sport took the thunder out of the Mercedes threats about the flexi-wing. It turns out the Mercedes rear wing was flexing too. That really cracked me up.

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Yep, but it only really started really flexing in Azerbaijan... so they kinda took the wind out of their own sails with that move.

It was interesting to watch the sky interview of Horner and Toto Wolff. Horner had his chest out and full of confidence and obvious pride. And Wolff looking calm and philosophical, with an air of we have seen worst days and come back from it. The interesting image was of the shorter stature of Horner looking up to the taller physique of the seven times constructor champion team boss of Mercedes. A picture that captures the actual state of affairs between these two teams and team bosses alike.

But where do the relative advantages or disadvantages lay, l wonder?

We could argue that Mercedes has the faster engine relative to the Honda engine. But Redbull has the better chassis under the 2021 regulations, thus has a broader scope for development and tuning. We could also venture to say that Redbull has overall shown a more efficient operation since the second race of the season. Mercedes on the other hand has been very wobbly in various aspects of their operations. Initially, it was poor pit work that was the problem for Mercedes. And increasingly it is becoming poor in-the-moment strategic agility that is preventing them from maximizing potential opportunities. Hence, Redbull is ahead because they have improved their operations. But also are thinking very well on their feet during the race.

The leading drivers in both teams are equally matched. And there is nothing between them at the moment. But the disparity becomes more glaring when we look at the qualifying and race performances of the second drivers in both teams. While Perez has been progressively closing the gap to Verstappen in qualifying and the race, Bottas on the other hand, has been drifting back and forth in an inconsistent manner to and from Hamilton. And this is one of the main areas where Redbull has established the points difference to Mercedes.

Since Redbull was able to beat Mercedes on one of its favourite tracks, it paints a new and different picture. Firstly it indicates in clear terms that Mercedes has gone the wrong way with its recent upgrades. The car appears slower than its Barcelona incarnation. Both of their drivers are uncomfortable with it.

And Redbull is on its typical yearly progression curve, where the car progressively gets faster and faster as we approach the end of the year. Mercedes on the other hand, typically have a development spike over the summer, attaining its optimum performance by around 75% into the season and then move attention to the following year's car. It is typically beyond the 75% marker of Mercedes that Redbull was able to steal a win from Mercedes. But this year spells a different story. Mercedes is yet to find or reach its optimum performance and Redbull are already winning. This implies that, if Mercedes wants to win the 2021 championships, they would have to match the Redbull development cycle all the way to the end of the season.

Even so, their chances of beating Redbull comes down to how well they can get the W12 architecture to adapt to the aerodynamic ballast [aeroblast] that the 2021 regulations have placed on it.

I think what we have here is an engineering puzzle that Mercedes has been tasked to solve with their enormous ingenuity. They have the engine and the driver to win both championships. They just need to sort the chassis out. Meanwhile, Redbull is freewheeling down a slope with their hands up in the air and going "weeeeee".

I think it's hilarious that having moaned about the rear wings, now he got beat by the wing that is still fine and within the regs. But RB played the same game, and now the Merc front wing is being looked at.

Same with the tires, though that was Lewis and not Toto. Apparently he asked what the penalty would be for RB running out of spec. Pirelli stated that there was no such evidence.



IMHO there is hardly anything between the two cars. RB has managed to do better with strategy than anything else. The Merc still does well in most stuff, but the RB seems to have an advantage putting down the power. It comes at a cost in tires, but that thing is sticky on corner exit.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I think it's hilarious that having moaned about the rear wings, now he got beat by the wing that is still fine and within the regs. But RB played the same game, and now the Merc front wing is being looked at.

Same with the tires, though that was Lewis and not Toto. Apparently he asked what the penalty would be for RB running out of spec. Pirelli stated that there was no such evidence.



IMHO there is hardly anything between the two cars. RB has managed to do better with strategy than anything else. The Merc still does well in most stuff, but the RB seems to have an advantage putting down the power. It comes at a cost in tires, but that thing is sticky on corner exit.

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Redbull has three-tenths of a second on Mercedes. That is not "nothing". The relative deficit in performance between Mercedes and Redbull has effectively switched. With Mercedes chasing down the Redbulls as Redbull use to do in previous seasons. The business with the wings was pointless, as the front wing investigation would also prove.

The real worrying fact of the season, is that the regulations seem to have only favoured Redbull. The rest of the pack are a full second out of reach of the sharp end of the grid. Which really makes one wonder. Do you smell a rat yet?

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

The real worrying fact of the season, is that the regulations seem to have only favoured Redbull. The rest of the pack are a full second out of reach of the sharp end of the grid. Which really makes one wonder. Do you smell a rat yet?

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It likely has helped Red Bull a little but I think we also ought to give Honda some credit too.
When they can make such advances and get that much closer to Mercs power output, it gives Red Bull far wider aero level/tyre management options.

I don't smell a rat as such, F1 has always been this way. You could flip that and say well Merc had an unfair advantage in being able to put more resources into developing their hybrid engine than everyone else and gain a head start, that they have been able to maintain for so many years... but that's not fair either to say that, they still did an outstanding job.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Redbull has three-tenths of a second on Mercedes. That is not "nothing". The relative deficit in performance between Mercedes and Redbull has effectively switched. With Mercedes chasing down the Redbulls as Redbull use to do in previous seasons. The business with the wings was pointless, as the front wing investigation would also prove.

The real worrying fact of the season, is that the regulations seem to have only favoured Redbull. The rest of the pack are a full second out of reach of the sharp end of the grid. Which really makes one wonder. Do you smell a rat yet?

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The Red Bulls have three tenths? Where is it?

With 7 races in the books Merc have the same 3 poles as RB, and Bottas took one of them for Merc. Race wins sway to RB, with Perez picking one up when the top two drivers failed to stay at the top. Considering the trainwreck that was Monaco and the Lewis mistake in Baku, it still seems fairly tight to me. As compared to last year, no. But last year was another year of complete Merc domination.

RB have done well due to consistency and strategy. With Perez starting to give solid drives it is having impact on Merc, and Lewis has made mistakes this year as well.


The only thing I smell is that people are going to have to realize that the car has been a huge part of the equation forever with F1. And the era of Hamilton's titles is no exception. Now Merc have to fight, both the team and driver. And it's a position they are not all that used to, so the conspiracy theories will run wild. I guess those that think the rules were changed just due to Merc will have to decide... were they changed just to hurt Merc, or just to benefit RB? I personally think neither is the case, and as usual a top team got it right better than anyone else.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

The Red Bulls have three tenths? Where is it?

With 7 races in the books Merc have the same 3 poles as RB, and Bottas took one of them for Merc. Race wins sway to RB, with Perez picking one up when the top two drivers failed to stay at the top. Considering the trainwreck that was Monaco and the Lewis mistake in Baku, it still seems fairly tight to me. As compared to last year, no. But last year was another year of complete Merc domination.

RB have done well due to consistency and strategy. With Perez starting to give solid drives it is having impact on Merc, and Lewis has made mistakes this year as well.


The only thing I smell is that people are going to have to realize that the car has been a huge part of the equation forever with F1. And the era of Hamilton's titles is no exception. Now Merc have to fight, both the team and driver. And it's a position they are not all that used to, so the conspiracy theories will run wild. I guess those that think the rules were changed just due to Merc will have to decide... were they changed just to hurt Merc, or just to benefit RB? I personally think neither is the case, and as usual a top team got it right better than anyone else.

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As of Paul Ricard, Redbull is three tenths faster on the straights to the Mercedes. That would be repeated at the Redbull Ring on Sunday. Not unless Mercedes can find something before the race.