Who will be first on the market with a new rally 3 car?
A R2 with 4 wheel drive?
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...der-stepped-up
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Who will be first on the market with a new rally 3 car?
A R2 with 4 wheel drive?
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...der-stepped-up
In some countries this class will become a factor between R2 and R5 or R4 if it takes off.
In championships that are mostly run on gravel or snow, this will be a good learning 4wd class for youngsters.
No thread for the Rally 4 class(class of the Fiesta and 208 R2T) :confused:
OK thanks Sulland ;)
Is something said from FIA about regulations for the 4wd in this class?
Will it be a kit, as in R4 or will it be free for tuners to make?
Tragic. Some classes could be left to the rest of motorsport industry to make parts for. This class will most likely be for parts of the world where gravel/snow is predominant, sweden and finland have many smart tuners that could contribute in this class, mostly for young and coming drivers.
I think You don't understand the concept. The idea of R5 was to use as many standard production parts as possible no matter the manufacturer and to keep the cost of the car and its spare parts basically frozen for all the time. There is even higher number of such stock parts in the Rally3 concept (thanks to lower performance). This concept absolutely works in R5 and there is a good reason to expect it will work with Rally3 as well.
"Stupid is as stupid does"
Well, I understand, but I do not agree.
FIA is more and more giving projects to one company as with R4, or to the OEMs. By doing it this way none of the tunerfirms get anything out of newer rallycars. They just have to concentrate on the older national classes.
Possibility is of course that the OE Manufacturers could hire in a firm to make the 4wd system for their R2 car, but in 99% of the cases they will build it inhouse.
The saf thing is that the engeneering capability inside the independant motorsport companies slowley die, and with them many good ideas never be seen.
Like these firms
http://www.tractive.se/Technology
https://www.sadev-tm.com/en/products/4-wd-products/http://www.sellholm.se/en/produkter/...4xell%C3%A5dor
https://www.xtrac.com/sectors/motorsport/rally-offroad/
Xtrack started up with Martin Schanche in the mis 80s, and look where they are today!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xtrac_Limited
Many says competition is healthy, and with a max price and a strict rulebook, they could compete.
What you say is not true. Sorry.
Sulland is right in one aspect: current rules (basically since Gr.R introduction) are totally directed to manus official tuners. Official tuners will always be the reference in the sport but besides being more competitive the cars they built are also more expensive, making them unaffordable for many drivers/teams. Addicionally, the number of homologated cars (with R5 exception) is decreasing at an alarming rate, with the risk of most entry lists becoming boring monotype events. More balanced tech rules, allowing a further participation of private tuners, would be very welcomed.
It's not true that private tuners have nothing out of modern rally cars. There are plenty of companies making a lot of money out of the new cars. It's also not true that their engineering skills are disappearing. Absolutely not. Plenty of private companies do very hi-tech work with the new cars. When I speak strictly for Czechia and even for the most expnesive R5 cars most of the Fabias and Fiestas R5 here have engine from Vančík company, not from Oreca or M-Sport (even big teams like SRT, BRR or TGS use these privately-built engines). Many teams develop their own suspension (damper internals are free and Czech roads are very specific - for example standard M-Sport asphalt dampers usually don't work here). Pech's team even managed to get their own Mini RRC gearing homologated by Prodrive few years a go.
That you buy homologated stuff doesn't mean the work is done and there is nothing to improve. Quite the opposite, even the homologated car is just a base for further (albeit limited) development but the limits is what keeps the cost from spiralling sky high.
Rally3 is coming 2021 earliest...
No matter the way you look at it, the truth is that in Gr.N/A days you had a wide diversity of cars and you were able to prepare them in different spec levels, according to your budget; with Gr.R you’re limited to a few cars only available in manus specs and prices*, making harder for those with lower budgets to buy them. That’s crystal clear.
*ok, a few tuners can slightly improve manus specs, making their prices even more expensive…hurrah!
Gr.A/gr.N is dead and already burried by a thick dust. It's nothing but history. Get used to that finally and look what can be done now in the current world.
You’re free to find me nostalgic, but I’m not; I’m concerned about the sport future and pissed to see that the FIA doesn’t care to get more liberal homologation rules to allow private tuners providing rally cars for a fraction of the price of those made by the manus monopoly.
Are you satisfied with having only 2 R1 cars and 2 R2’s homologated in 3 years? How many new R5 homologations are expected next year? And WRC’s in 2022? Let’s face it: without a larger diversity of cars and brands the sport can’t progress and private tuners are vital to bring that diversity back.
Why do you think "private tuners" will be able to produce parts for less than a manufacturer, who does it on a larger scale?
Many of you are forgetting safety.
Home-built cars just can´t be builded cheaply without latest safety equipment.
For me the ball related to the small classes is on the national ASN side. If I say it cynically why shall FIA care about cars which are basically irrelevant for FIA championships? It doesn't make sense to pretend it's not like that. Naturally they don't put much emphasis on something which doesn't compete in FIA championships anyway and which is not interesting for the manufacturers at the same time.
In most of the countries you can build small cars on local private basis according to the ASN rules. The reason why there is so few R1 cars available is IMHO in the fact that they aren't actually needed. Nobody competes with these small cars internationally.
Come on pantealex, we’re not talking about home made cars; we’re talking about proper rally cars made under FIA standards by independent tuners, just like Maxi Rally in Argentina, N5 in Spain or AP4 in Australia and New Zealand.
Instead of promoting R4 as a single supplier kit, there was room to make a global R4 regulation, allowing a proper competition between tuners around the world. The same for a 2wd category. Besides, most ASN’s don’t have tech expertise to regulate rally categories and without a global rule it’ll also be harder for local tuners to get a proper scale for starting their projects.
The rally market should work freely, as any other market; without a wider diversity at the base we can’t have a strong pinnacle; restraining the whole sport to a bunch of manus is hurting Rally.
According to FIA rally boss, saying to MN that 3 manufacturers ara activly working on the concept, and 3 more are studying the tech draft.
he hopes minimum two cartypes ready for 2021, maybe more.
Matton also agrees that the R4/R2 Kit class is too closely prized vs R5. They are looking to getting an alternativ kit maker in addition to Oreca, to get the price down.
Not hard to guess: Ford, Peugeot and Renault (the last one was rumoured even before the Rally5 Clio launch).
Launching R4 trough a single supplier was a terrible idea and having just one more won't probably be enough to fix it. The FIA should make a universal rule, based on R4 kit specs, opening the class to all sort of private tuners.
The R3 class overlaps with the R4. I don't know what the FIA plans was, but it doesn't look good. The R4 is too expensive, too close to the R5 in performance, and puts the Maxy Rally, N5 and AP4 out of competition. The idea to have an unique provider in Europe to the entire world is plain wrong just because not all the world is the same, and it goes directly against the local teams/tuners.
The R3 should be different than the R4 idea. It should be a set of rules, with maybe some common components and that's all, then the teams and tuners should make the rest. The real need today is to fil the gap between FWD cars and the MR, N5, AP4, R4 car.
I think FIA should hear the teams and drivers on the lower categories, because what they are looking for now is a 4WD car cheaper and slower than the R4, MR, N5 or AP5.
Important to keep to the maxprize of €100,000.
So if a rally4 car will cost € 60-65 000, then they have 30-35 k to build tunnel and 4wd system.
Should be possible.
The FIA Rally Department used last week’s World Motor Sport Council meeting to provide further details on Rally3, which is set to go on stream in 2021.
Essentially a Rally4 (formerly R2) car with four-wheel drive, Rally3 is already attracting interest from regions around the world as a replacement for the Group N category, that can appeal to both gentlemen drivers and their career-focused counterparts stepping up from 2WD machinery.
Key facts:
- Manufacturers convert bodyshell from 2WD to 4WD configuration
- Common front and rear parts (wishbones, dampers, brake calipers, etc) to cut costs
- Car width the same as standard production car (not widened as in Rally2)
- Standard bodywork (bumpers and fenders can be bought from local car dealerships)
- Fuel tank simple in shape to reduce costs, positioned higher in car for simple design
- One gearbox ratio set only, two differential ramp angles to lessen engineering input
- Homologated from 1 January, 2021
As approved by the World Council on Friday, all cars will have the same level of performance, with the same weight of 1,180kg and same power of 210 hp, balanced by a turbocharger retrictor.
A price cap of €100,000 for the rally has been set in the homologation regulations.
Oman seminar demonstrates enthusiasm for Rally3
Interest in Rally3 at regional level was perfectly demonstrated by a recent seminar in Oman where Jérôme Roussel delivered a presentation on the new-for-2021 category.
The FIA Regional Rally Category Manager welcomed the enthusiastic response to Rally3: “There was very big interest, notably from Saudi Arabia and Qatar,” he said. “They understood the product is cost-effective, the maintenance is easy and you don’t need to call for the engineer every time you run the car. They want to support the new generation of drivers and the product is really good for this.”
This looks like a winner, and is turning out to be what they tried with R4 Kit, but missed on the price.
By having 200 hp, and not more the drivers can learn to master 4wd, and by that be more ready for Rally2 and Rally1!
That's exactly the same target than Maxi Rally Light class. The price of this new Rally3 seems as high as a R4 but with less performance (maybe it uses part of that development). The MR Light class uses the same components and engine as the MR (to avoid the need of new parts), but it have a 32mm restrictor. The other change on the Maxi Rally Light class is that it allows the use of an H gearbox instead a secuential to reduce costs (because in the case of Argentina, H gearbox is build locally, and the sencuential gearbox have to be imported and pay taxes). This should be mandatory or not to everybody to keep the parity.
Here is a video o Patricia Pita, showing her VW Maxi Rally Light with a H gearbox shifter and the turbo engine with only 215HP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqYLKxeV9YQ
Maybe taking the N5 cars from RMC could be a fast and cheapest option for Rally3. Why? Because RMC have already (as in the case of the MR) all the bodywork parts, suspension, gearbox etc etc. They are selling N5 cars on Spain, Belgium and even Finland.
FIA should look what drivers and teams are doing, instead to try to impose their ideas.
I think that a factory-built rallycar is more reliable and has more buyers in worldwide championships. Also if you read, runnign costs will be quite a lot lower than the suggested/compared classes. For example, bodywork in this class is stock: buy OEM parts from a dealer or b-parts....a big save in running costs (especially when having an accident)
And N5 cars are not cheap either, I heard prices for a competitive car around 150k, and let's be honest, for that price you can get a second hand R5 car
Who will get a R3 first on the market?
Looking back, My money is on MSport.
They sold a shitload of R5s getting them first on the market in 2013.
But the idea is to have a car to jump from FWD to 4WD. About the price of the car, it's always the same discussion about starting price versus operational price. What I thought about the N5 as a base, is to reduce the time to get the cars ready, and if the N5 have good sales the price of the bodyparts could become cheaper. Another good thing about it, it's that the car could jump into the next competition level very easy rising the engine power throught the restrictor without the need to change the car. The cars are there available now to start a new season next year.
Look at the R4 examples, it started 3 or 4 years ago and there are very few models, and you can't use a car that Oreca didn't homologate it.
The Maxi rally or N5 rules don't contain enough tools to keep their cost once the manufacturers get involved and they are more expensive already now. The Rally 3 rules are based on the same principle which works well in R5 to keep the cost on the same level for a long period of time. It's not a sort of uptuned R2. In performance yes, in the way the rules are written not. Also the rules are written so that they attract manufacturers which is also very important for creating a real ladder.
R5 was placed too close to the R5 both in performance and the price. Since the beginning it was predicted that it has to fail (at least in Europe).
Well, if the idea is to get a rally3 "ready to race" car, to buy the cars from the manufacturers as in the case of the R5 is ok. I thought that all about rally3 was about keep the small teams working and the drivers/owners.