Wise words from the FIA President?

Just read this on Autosport, thought it was a reasoned quote from the 'old git'! ;)

Mosley doesn't believe Dennis in spy case

By Jonathan Noble Saturday, December 22nd 2007, 10:06 GMT


FIA president Max Mosley thinks it is likely that McLaren boss Ron Dennis did know the real extent of his team's transgressions in the spying controversy this year, despite stating he knew nothing about it.

Dennis has maintained his position that he was unaware that Ferrari information inside McLaren had manifested itself from chief designer Mike Coughlan. But Mosley is sceptical of those claims.

"One can only say it's extremely improbable that Ron didn't know," Mosley said in an interview with the Guardian. "Every time I speak to him he still assures me that he would never tell a lie, that he never has told a lie and that he hasn't lied to us.

"When you've known somebody for 40 years it's very difficult just to say, 'Well, I don't believe you.' But in the end no hard-nosed lawyer or policeman would believe it for a moment. I'm probably being a bit of a wimp about it."

Mosley reckons had Dennis approached the two FIA hearings held over the matter with the same kind of attitude that the team displayed in their recent letter of apology to the FIA, then he thinks a punishment meted out on them would have been much less severe.

"If, when Ron learnt about it, he had just called Jean Todt [of Ferrari] and said, 'Listen, you've got to know about Stepney,' we'd never even have heard about it," he explained.

"The next opportunity was when they got caught with all the documents, and he should have just come to the world council and said, 'Look, I'm really sorry, a few of my people know about it and I'm going to eradicate it.'

"There would have been a very modest fine and maybe [a deduction of] a few points at the most and it would all have been over.

"As the police say, we went where the evidence took us and we had no choice but to do that. If we'd swept it under the carpet or pretended it wasn't important I think everyone would have lost faith in our ability to regulate the sport."

Mosley has continued to deny that he dislikes Dennis, but does admit to having issues with the McLaren boss' approach to F1.

"I quite like him," he said. "But I do despise - I think that's probably the right word - his attitude to Formula One, when he says, for example, that he's passionate about Formula One. That's not true.

"He's passionate about McLaren finishing first and second in every race, which is his job, but it's not the same thing as being passionate about formula one and it's foolish to pretend that it is."

Go discuss. (Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere.....)

I too saw this yesterday and thought that it was good. Nice to see him explaining what most of us thought was the case, in terms of the FIA not believing McLaren were telling the truth being a large part of the basis for punishing them hard.

I found this part the most interesting, as I have thought this for over 15 years now..

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Originally Posted by MAX MOSLEY

"I quite like him," he said. "But I do despise - I think that's probably the right word - his attitude to Formula One, when he says, for example, that he's passionate about Formula One. That's not true.

"He's passionate about McLaren finishing first and second in every race, which is his job, but it's not the same thing as being passionate about formula one and it's foolish to pretend that it is."

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Okay, so there are lots of other team bosses who want their team to be the best, but I honestly don't think you could say that about Frank Williams, Christian Horner or even Jean Todt for example.

I'm sure a lot of people will say this is Max 'shooting his mouth off' again, but when a magazine/website/newspaper approaches someone with an interview request, and then publishes the interview, it's not really shooting their mouth off.... And it has been interesting that a lot of forum members who have complained about Max commenting on McLaren/Dennis/Hill/Brundle etc, are a lot of the same people who complain there are 'a lack of characters' in F1 these days and that everyone is too 'corporate' and not willing to 'speak their mind'.
At least Max is willing to, and is pretty usually reasoned and coherent when he does!

And no, I am not a fan of the way F1 technical regs have been unilaterally decided by him, but I do think he has been a good president, just needs a bit less power over the rules and regs of the sport..

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Originally Posted by Osella

I too saw this yesterday and thought that it was good. Nice to see him explaining what most of us thought was the case, in terms of the FIA not believing McLaren were telling the truth being a large part of the basis for punishing them hard.

I found this part the most interesting, as I have thought this for over 15 years now..


Okay, so there are lots of other team bosses who want their team to be the best, but I honestly don't think you could say that about Frank Williams, Christian Horner or even Jean Todt for example.

I'm sure a lot of people will say this is Max 'shooting his mouth off' again, but when a magazine/website/newspaper approaches someone with an interview request, and then publishes the interview, it's not really shooting their mouth off.... And it has been interesting that a lot of forum members who have complained about Max commenting on McLaren/Dennis/Hill/Brundle etc, are a lot of the same people who complain there are 'a lack of characters' in F1 these days and that everyone is too 'corporate' and not willing to 'speak their mind'.
At least Max is willing to, and is pretty usually reasoned and coherent when he does!

And no, I am not a fan of the way F1 technical regs have been unilaterally decided by him, but I do think he has been a good president, just needs a bit less power over the rules and regs of the sport..

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this only re-empiahises what I already thought... that he has a proper grude against Dennis/McLaren.

The reasoning above may be sound... but if you use the same standard, why were renault not judged by the same rules? "If they had come and told us, we would have gave them a modest fine, and deducted a few points".. renault did not even do this, and still got off scott free.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Just read this on Autosport, thought it was a reasoned quote from the 'old git'! ;)

Mosley doesn't believe Dennis in spy case

By Jonathan Noble Saturday, December 22nd 2007, 10:06 GMT


FIA president Max Mosley thinks it is likely that McLaren boss Ron Dennis did know the real extent of his team's transgressions in the spying controversy this year, despite stating he knew nothing about it.

Dennis has maintained his position that he was unaware that Ferrari information inside McLaren had manifested itself from chief designer Mike Coughlan. But Mosley is sceptical of those claims.

"One can only say it's extremely improbable that Ron didn't know," Mosley said in an interview with the Guardian. "Every time I speak to him he still assures me that he would never tell a lie, that he never has told a lie and that he hasn't lied to us.

"When you've known somebody for 40 years it's very difficult just to say, 'Well, I don't believe you.' But in the end no hard-nosed lawyer or policeman would believe it for a moment. I'm probably being a bit of a wimp about it."

Mosley reckons had Dennis approached the two FIA hearings held over the matter with the same kind of attitude that the team displayed in their recent letter of apology to the FIA, then he thinks a punishment meted out on them would have been much less severe.

"If, when Ron learnt about it, he had just called Jean Todt [of Ferrari] and said, 'Listen, you've got to know about Stepney,' we'd never even have heard about it," he explained.

"The next opportunity was when they got caught with all the documents, and he should have just come to the world council and said, 'Look, I'm really sorry, a few of my people know about it and I'm going to eradicate it.'

"There would have been a very modest fine and maybe [a deduction of] a few points at the most and it would all have been over.

"As the police say, we went where the evidence took us and we had no choice but to do that. If we'd swept it under the carpet or pretended it wasn't important I think everyone would have lost faith in our ability to regulate the sport."

Mosley has continued to deny that he dislikes Dennis, but does admit to having issues with the McLaren boss' approach to F1.

"I quite like him," he said. "But I do despise - I think that's probably the right word - his attitude to Formula One, when he says, for example, that he's passionate about Formula One. That's not true.

"He's passionate about McLaren finishing first and second in every race, which is his job, but it's not the same thing as being passionate about formula one and it's foolish to pretend that it is."

Go discuss. (Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere.....)

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Extremely wise words.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Extremely wise words.

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Originally Posted by Osella

I too saw this yesterday and thought that it was good. Nice to see him explaining what most of us thought was the case, in terms of the FIA not believing McLaren were telling the truth being a large part of the basis for punishing them hard.

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At least Max is willing to, and is pretty usually reasoned and coherent when he does!

********..

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Just read this on Autosport, thought it was a reasoned quote from the 'old git'! ;)

.....)

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Reasoned???? Wise??????

More like saying the undeniable obvious that anyone above IQ of 50 who has not been drinking the kool aid would say about Mac as demonstrated not only by Spygate, the "non-appeal" for the fuel temps while their lawyer urges the WDC title to go to Hamilton, the "we are team equality" nonsense but "we were racing" against that "recyled" driver Freddie.....


Nevertheless, the old hypocrite in true The Prince" fashion would say,
"As the police say, we went where the evidence took us and we had no choice but to do that. If we'd swept it under the carpet or pretended it wasn't important I think everyone would have lost faith in our ability to regulate the sport."

and sweeping under the carpet was what they did when Mac was caught cheating again, after being warned of severe penalities for 2008, if their car was found to be a problem, and knowing this, Mac still did it anyway, with the hope of not being caught, and after the confession, swept under the rug it was done to protect revenue for 2008....

"Lost faith in ability to regulate the sport"? "lost"? How can one lose that which was has not been there for quite some time???


And then there is Renault, and one might ask if this is his true thoughts:"There would have been a very modest fine and maybe [a deduction of] a few points at the most and it would all have been over." as he says, well where is the modest fine and deduction of a few points......????

All of this proves that unlike Bernie (who sometimes can not help himself) MaX has not forgot the wise words of the ultimate Prince, the old Godfather himself, who said "Never tell anyone outside the family what you are really thinking"............ :vader:

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

"I quite like him," he said. "But I do despise - I think that's probably the right word - his attitude to Formula One, when he says, for example, that he's passionate about Formula One. That's not true.

"He's passionate about McLaren finishing first and second in every race, which is his job, but it's not the same thing as being passionate about formula one and it's foolish to pretend that it is."

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There's some truth in this one bit about Ron Dennis only caring about finishing first and second (although I would like to meet a team owner who doesn't) and perhaps not caring so much for the sport in general but that accusation can be levelled at any of the major teams. In fact its this inability to see F1 from a less detached less NIMBY-ish perspective that has allowed Bernie to divide and rule the teams so successfully.

However overall its the usual Max bile, attack the personalities that the FIA council has found against safe in the knowledge that the only way to make him publicly repudiate what he has said is either by suing him or appealing the original case via the FIA (ie not going to happen). Its pretty childish behaviour and not what I expect to see from the man who runs the governing body of a sport.

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Originally Posted by Osella

just needs a bit less power over the rules and regs of the sport..

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Yes, that is in my letter to Santa....!!!

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Originally Posted by Buzz Lightyear

but if you use the same standard, why were renault not judged by the same rules? "If they had come and told us, we would have gave them a modest fine, and deducted a few points".. renault did not even do this, and still got off scott free.

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Originally Posted by Markabilly

And then there is Renault, and one might ask if this is his true thoughts:"There would have been a very modest fine and maybe [a deduction of] a few points at the most and it would all have been over." as he says, well where is the modest fine and deduction of a few points......????

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You see, he's (MM) still consistently inconsistent.... ;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

"If, when Ron learnt about it, he had just called Jean Todt [of Ferrari] and said, 'Listen, you've got to know about Stepney,' we'd never even have heard about it,"

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Reasoned???? Wise??????

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Yes, just like I said earlier.

From Day One of Spygate becoming public, I've been saying that the correct thing for Mclaren to have done was inform Ferrari they had a leak.

It is what a gentleman would do, it is what an honest man would do, it is what a moral man would do.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Its pretty childish behaviour and not what I expect to see from the man who runs the governing body of a sport.

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You don't perchance remember 1994 then...? And the 'real' reason Michael Schumacher copped a three race ban for overtaking on the parade lap!? A certain Italian team boss of a certain Anglo-Italian team wrote an open letter saying a certain FIA president was not fit for the job...his team was then investigated over; traction control, fuel filling, warm-up lap driving, ignoring a wrongly-issued penalty (by the FIA's own stewards no less) and very nearly lost the world championship as a result. There were no murmors or a 'witch hunt' back then by the FIA against Benetton, and indeed certainly in the British press (less so in the specialist motorsport press however) it was assumed they had been cheating all along and should be thrown out. Those same papers, and those same people have been saying now that Max has a vendetta and has been unfair to McLaren.

Flavio has since pushed for the GPMA series, before a deal was struck and Renault became the first of those teams bar Ferrari to back down from the proposal. His company also supplies all engines for the official FIA F1 feeder category. Renault also escaped punishment in their spy row.

Coincidence? I think not, just as I think McLaren were punished in part for Ron Dennis' constant criticism of the FIA, and McLaren's continual testing of the FIA's rules and decisions, Renault almost certainly escaped because Flavio has realised how to play the game to his advantage, and the FIA has hit them hard before with a direction it is almost impossible to remove from the personalities involved (just like RD vs MM now, as we had MM vs FB then). Think back to 1994 and Benetton were nearly hounded out of the world championship because of personal disagreements between team management and the FIA.

These days is is McLaren who are not just getting a punishment for the spying affair, but (I believe) the constant belittling of F1 by Ron Dennis whenever things don't go his way. (see Mosley's quotes) Good. I have been following F1 for a considerable time, and while the FIA's judgements may not always seem 'fair', in this case McLaren finally did something whereby they deserve all they get, long may it continue throughout their (cramped) 2008 championship...

Now if we could just get someone like Gordon Murray in to write the technical regs instead of tinkerMax, F1 would be much rosier again. :up:

Actually it seems like one of Max's better quotes recently. No "halfwit" comments or the like. Simply trying to explain his position for a change (whether you agree with him or not.)

I don't blame him for not trusting Ron Dennis. I had quite a bit of respect for many of the things Ron had to say in the past, but the overwhelming doubts and outright deceit of his team while preaching "integrity" has left me with no respect for RD. This year would move RD below MM in my book!

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Actually it seems like one of Max's better quotes recently. No "halfwit" comments or the like. Simply trying to explain his position for a change (whether you agree with him or not.)

I don't blame him for not trusting Ron Dennis. I had quite a bit of respect for many of the things Ron had to say in the past, but the overwhelming doubts and outright deceit of his team while preaching "integrity" has left me with no respect for RD. This year would move RD below MM in my book!

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Reaching the heart of the bottom there :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Yes, just like I said earlier.

From Day One of Spygate becoming public, I've been saying that the correct thing for Mclaren to have done was inform Ferrari they had a leak.

It is what a gentleman would do, it is what an honest man would do, it is what a moral man would do.

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On that point, I debate you not :D , all too true

but as to what MaX has to say, i think it is just the saying the the obvious, yet MaX is still not coming clean just mouthing the same nonsense excuses as before, designed for public consumption, but we all know that when sweeping under carpet, per the last "discovery " about Mac, that MaX is very willing to sweep it under the carpet in the name of profit and entertainment

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Originally Posted by Osella

You don't perchance remember 1994 then...? And the 'real' reason Michael Schumacher copped a three race ban for overtaking on the parade lap!? A certain Italian team boss of a certain Anglo-Italian team wrote an open letter saying a certain FIA president was not fit for the job...his team was then investigated over; traction control, fuel filling, warm-up lap driving, ignoring a wrongly-issued penalty (by the FIA's own stewards no less) and very nearly lost the world championship as a result. There were no murmors or a 'witch hunt' back then by the FIA against Benetton, and indeed certainly in the British press (less so in the specialist motorsport press however) it was assumed they had been cheating all along and should be thrown out. Those same papers, and those same people have been saying now that Max has a vendetta and has been unfair to McLaren.

Flavio has since pushed for the GPMA series, before a deal was struck and Renault became the first of those teams bar Ferrari to back down from the proposal. His company also supplies all engines for the official FIA F1 feeder category. Renault also escaped punishment in their spy row.

Coincidence? I think not, just as I think McLaren were punished in part for Ron Dennis' constant criticism of the FIA, and McLaren's continual testing of the FIA's rules and decisions, Renault almost certainly escaped because Flavio has realised how to play the game to his advantage, and the FIA has hit them hard before with a direction it is almost impossible to remove from the personalities involved (just like RD vs MM now, as we had MM vs FB then). Think back to 1994 and Benetton were nearly hounded out of the world championship because of personal disagreements between team management and the FIA.

These days is is McLaren who are not just getting a punishment for the spying affair, but (I believe) the constant belittling of F1 by Ron Dennis whenever things don't go his way. (see Mosley's quotes) Good. I have been following F1 for a considerable time, and while the FIA's judgements may not always seem 'fair', in this case McLaren finally did something whereby they deserve all they get, long may it continue throughout their (cramped) 2008 championship...

Now if we could just get someone like Gordon Murray in to write the technical regs instead of tinkerMax, F1 would be much rosier again. :up:

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One small point to mention here - Benetton WERE cheating in '94. The filters had been removed from the fuelling rigs to make the fuel flow quicker. And, they nearly managed to kill one of their drivers as a result............

For Max to come out and say this now is only harming the sport more, and throwing it further into disrepute.
I thought he said (and I will have to look this up) that he wanted to move on from all of this..to close this chapter and move forward...clearly not..

There is not one person here who can say that Ron has not told the truth..as there is not anyone here who has any inside knowledge or info that would suggest otherwise.
I'm not saying that he has or has not, but I think all of the goings on this year, I wouldn't know whom to believe between Max and Ron..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

One small point to mention here - Benetton WERE cheating in '94. The filters had been removed from the fuelling rigs to make the fuel flow quicker. And, they nearly managed to kill one of their drivers as a result............

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One small point to mention here; they weren't.
They asked the FIA is it was ok to remove the filter and were told it was fine to do so... The investigation was to see whether this had caused the fire, but the removal of the filter had FIA steward's approval..

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Originally Posted by Osella

One small point to mention here; they weren't.
They asked the FIA is it was ok to remove the filter and were told it was fine to do so... The investigation was to see whether this had caused the fire, but the removal of the filter had FIA steward's approval..

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Oh, I stand corrected. Apologies. I just seem to remember that the removal of the filter was the cause of the spillage. Must just be the press at then time....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Osella

You don't perchance remember 1994 then...? And the 'real' reason Michael Schumacher copped a three race ban for overtaking on the parade lap!? A certain Italian team boss of a certain Anglo-Italian team wrote an open letter saying a certain FIA president was not fit for the job...his team was then investigated over; traction control, fuel filling, warm-up lap driving, ignoring a wrongly-issued penalty (by the FIA's own stewards no less) and very nearly lost the world championship as a result. There were no murmors or a 'witch hunt' back then by the FIA against Benetton, and indeed certainly in the British press (less so in the specialist motorsport press however) it was assumed they had been cheating all along and should be thrown out.

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One can understand the attitude of certain sections of the British press (not all of it, let's not forget) at that time, given Damon Hill's fight with Schumacher for the World Championship. Of course they were going to run with whatever stories they could get about the nasty team employing the nasty German driver.

The more reasonable elements of F1 reporting, as I recall, saw the situation back then for what it was — less than fair towards Benetton and Schumacher, and representative of the arbitrary manner in which punishments were being dished out. If anything, the latter part was even worse in 1994 than it was in 2007.

What I find hypocritical in the latest comments from Mosley, though, is the view that Ron Dennis 'must have known' about the Ferrari data. Again, there is no proof of this. It's a remark that's no different to offering the opinion that the FIA was pursuing a witch-hunt against McLaren, and it's skating on pretty thin ice.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

One can understand the attitude of certain sections of the British press (not all of it, let's not forget) at that time, given Damon Hill's fight with Schumacher for the World Championship. Of course they were going to run with whatever stories they could get about the nasty team employing the nasty German driver.

The more reasonable elements of F1 reporting, as I recall, saw the situation back then for what it was — less than fair towards Benetton and Schumacher, and representative of the arbitrary manner in which punishments were being dished out. If anything, the latter part was even worse in 1994 than it was in 2007.

What I find hypocritical in the latest comments from Mosley, though, is the view that Ron Dennis 'must have known' about the Ferrari data. Again, there is no proof of this. It's a remark that's no different to offering the opinion that the FIA was pursuing a witch-hunt against McLaren, and it's skating on pretty thin ice.

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"What I find hypocritical in the latest comments from Mosley, though, is the view that Ron Dennis 'must have known' about the Ferrari data. Again, there is no proof of this. It's a remark that's no different to offering the opinion that the FIA was pursuing a witch-hunt against McLaren, and it's skating on pretty thin ice."

I would say first RD knew or should have known, and how could he not??

But your intended point is well made, and in a courtroom of fairness (not necessarily the same thing as a courtroom of France nor an FIA court), a point that should be made clear and not overlooked.

Indeed, I would say that it is skating on the same ice that Brund;le was skating on, and why this suit never should have been filed

(of course, I am still happy they did, because in a discovery battle on equal terms, me thinks MaX's undies are very very dirty, and we will learn more about the deep hidden side of it all, and if past performance is any indication, just a small percentage of it leaking out will make even the most extreme, nut case conspiracy paranoid hallucinations of that nutty Markabilly look pretty boring, unimaginative and mundane)