Renault investigated by FIA !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/7085098.stm

this is getting out of hand and making F1 a laughing stock!

IF they have been cheating then they deserve investigating and punishing the same way as McLaren, the precedent has been set, and IF they have been cheating i think that everyone on the grid will be a whole lot more careful with both there own information, and their sources of information in the future as the penalties are so severe.

personally i'd think the fact that they have enough on the case to bring a charge against Renault is the worrying thing, indicating that the spying saga is potentially quite prevavlent, but if this is able to put an end to it then great. i certainly belive that the McLaren case is certainly not an isolated one, they weren't the first, and they surely won't be the last, but they were caught and they deservedly have had an example made of them - perhaps there are an example or 2 more to be made before this whole thing is cleaned up?

why does this stuff follow Fernando around? ;)

It'll be interesting to see if the Renault case follows the pattern set by Stepneygate in all respects :dozey:

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

It'll be interesting to see if the Renault case follows the pattern set by Stepneygate in all respects :dozey:

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That depends on McLaren :p :

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Originally Posted by pino

That depends on McLaren :p :

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Indeed. Perhaps if Ron and Mansour Ojeh jump up and down spitting blood 'a la Mssrs Todt and Montezemelo', then maybe that will be enough to force the Renault board to pull the plug on the team.

Why now? I wonder if McLaren have been trying to get Max to go easy on their 2008 'negative points allocation', and got "no" for an answer?

I am pleased with this development, anyway, everyone knew Renault had the data and used it in their cars, so it was quite unfair that McLaren were being singled out. Not to mention Flav's hypocrisy about it.

Shouldn't someone be getting upset at the title of this thread ?

They have been accused , not convicted .

Given that Flavio was shouting that he would have liked the weight distribution info on the Ferrari as well , back when the data was streaming to McLaren from the reds , is it inconceivable that he is in the same situation that Ron said he was in ?

Perhaps he didn't know .

Not that that should excuse him from being responsible , as he signed on as being so , just like Ron .
But , that will likely be his story , using his public disdain for the McLaren saga as evidence of his state of mind at the time , using Ron's precedent to cop a lesser fine due to a lesser amount of info .

Playing in Flavio's favour also , is the fact that Renault never really looked like they had a hope , showing that , if they had a peek , they certainly didn't show it . It sure didn't look like the had .

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

It'll be interesting to see if the Renault case follows the pattern set by Stepneygate in all respects :dozey:

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What, like Pat Symonds has sent his wife down to the local photocopying shop?

What, like if Renault have been in possession of a Mclaren dossier?

What, like if Martin Whitmarsh has been leaking info to Renault?

If there is hard evidence, like a dossier and email communication, then Renault should lose their constructors points for the 2007 season, just as Mclaren did.

Something tells me, however, that Renault's in-house management will have made pretty damn sure that even if hard evidence did at one time exist, it's long been removed.

Sometime between June & September, most likely.

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

I am pleased with this development, anyway, everyone knew Renault had the data and used it in their cars.

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Link please!

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Shouldn't someone be getting upset at the title of this thread ?

They have been accused , not convicted .

Given that Flavio was shouting that he would have liked the weight distribution info on the Ferrari as well , back when the data was streaming to McLaren from the reds , is it inconceivable that he is in the same situation that Ron said he was in ?

Perhaps he didn't know .

Not that that should excuse him from being responsible , as he signed on as being so , just like Ron .
But , that will likely be his story , using his public disdain for the McLaren saga as evidence of his state of mind at the time , using Ron's precedent to cop a lesser fine due to a lesser amount of info .

Playing in Flavio's favour also , is the fact that Renault never really looked like they had a hope , showing that , if they had a peek , they certainly didn't show it . It sure didn't look like the had .

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Bags, sorry, but I have grown weary of arguing of arguing what constitutes "cheating" but have gotten no clear definition so I ignore it now.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

What, like Pat Symonds has sent his wife down to the local photocopying shop?

What, like if Renault have been in possession of a Mclaren dossier?

What, like if Martin Whitmarsh has been leaking info to Renault?

If there is hard evidence, like a dossier and email communication, then Renault should lose their constructors points for the 2007 season, just as Mclaren did.

Something tells me, however, that Renault's in-house management will have made pretty damn sure that even if hard evidence did at one time exist, it's long been removed.

Sometime between June & September, most likely.

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Not to worry , Tambo , when they dust for fingerprints , they use powder , so we should be able to get some good scandal going here . They could dust Martin's pockets .

McLaren has no comment , just accusations .
Nice series we have here .

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Bags, sorry, but I have grown weary of arguing of arguing what constitutes "cheating" but have gotten no clear definition so I ignore it now.

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My point was that I believe it was quickly clarified in the thread title when it was McLaren that were accused .
Really , just an aside that could help avoid some argument if cleared up quickly .

I did digress , but for a reason .

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Originally Posted by tamburello

What, like Pat Symonds has sent his wife down to the local photocopying shop?

What, like if Renault have been in possession of a Mclaren dossier?

What, like if Martin Whitmarsh has been leaking info to Renault?

If there is hard evidence, like a dossier and email communication, then Renault should lose their constructors points for the 2007 season, just as Mclaren did.

Something tells me, however, that Renault's in-house management will have made pretty damn sure that even if hard evidence did at one time exist, it's long been removed.

Sometime between June & September, most likely.

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Well, the FIA could pull the same trick as they are going to try with McLaren. "That component looks dodgy, lets stuff 'em"

Unfortunately, the FIA set a very dangerous precedent pandering to the Ferrari machine, and cannot now be seen to be doing anything other than blowing the whistle on the whole incestuous world that is F1. It will be fun watching Charlie Farley boys looking for those elusive needles within all those haystacks. :p :

You never know, Max might decide he fancies retirement after all........ ;)

There was this item....

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19677.html

including:
"More specifically, however, there have been allegations in recent days that Renault engineer Phil Mackereth took three disks of McLaren information with him when he joined Renault. We have also heard rumours that McLaren information may have also turned up at another team which recruited people from McLaren. For the moment everyone is remaining very quiet and playing down the possibilities.
"What happened is what happens probably all the time," Renault team boss Flavio Briatore told a German magazine, oddly echoing the remarks of de la Rosa and Dennis. "It cannot be controlled. I don't want to say anything, because it is now something for the FIA to judge."
Briatore added that the team has given all the available information about the case to the FIA and to McLaren."

So I think there is definitely something to it.

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

"More specifically, however, there have been allegations in recent days that Renault engineer Phil Mackereth took three disks of McLaren information with him when he joined Renault.

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Just a question (not directly to Passmeatissue, more a general one).....have the disks been found at Renault, like the dossier was found in the possession of a Mclaren designer?

If they have, then Renault are in the same boat.

If they haven't, then there isn't any hard evidence.

Tad Czapski, head of R&D at RenaultF1...

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Originally Posted by Wilderness

Tad Czapski, head of R&D at RenaultF1...

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I hope there's more to the current accusation than that!

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Originally Posted by tamburello

...have the disks been found at Renault, like the dossier was found in the possession of a Mclaren designer?

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By "at Renault" you mean in possession of a Renault employee?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I hope there's more to the current accusation than that!

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Sorry if I was too subtle for you.

My jest was with regards to the incestuous culture the F1 community has had for many years. One engineer sneezes, and all the teams catch the same cold. Max is fighting a futile battle in this pandemic.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

By "at Renault" you mean in possession of a Renault employee?

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Possesion as in proved beyond doubt to be in his possession, such as found at his house, in his car, in his laptop by, say, the police?

Wasn't that the point about Coughlan...he was caught in possesion of the documents?

I'm just intrigued to know if there is something so definitive with the Renault accusation.

If it's just a case of someone being accused of taking a disk without anything to confirm that he did, then there won't be much for Renault to have to do to get off.

So, does anyone know if there is any 'smoking gun' in this case, as there was with the Stepneygate case?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Just a question (not directly to Passmeatissue, more a general one).....have the disks been found at Renault, like the dossier was found in the possession of a Mclaren designer?

If they have, then Renault are in the same boat.

If they haven't, then there isn't any hard evidence.

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There's a good summary (as so often) on grandprix.com...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19845.html

Since Flav is agreeing that the issue does exist, I am pretty sure there is hard evidence, otherwise he would have denied it. I feel there are too many specifics for this to be an empty allegation. There was a story that Flav visited the Macca motorhome (or whatever it is in Ronspeak) and signed some kind of agreement, which Ron tried to present at the WMSC hearing. I was afraid that in return Ron had agreed not to "complain" to the FIA, but apparently not so.

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

There's a good summary (as so often) on grandprix.com...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19845.html

Since Flav is agreeing that the issue does exist, I am pretty sure there is hard evidence, otherwise he would have denied it. I feel there are too many specifics for this to be an empty allegation. There was a story that Flav visited the Macca motorhome (or whatever it is in Ronspeak) and signed some kind of agreement, which Ron tried to present at the WMSC hearing. I was afraid that in return Ron had agreed not to "complain" to the FIA, but apparently not so.

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Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Shouldn't someone be getting upset at the title of this thread ?

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No French forum members, no Renault fans, no moderator who's fan of Renault either. So I guess it's OK!

Nevertheless a good point to start with! ;)

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

There's a good summary (as so often) on grandprix.com...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19845.html

Since Flav is agreeing that the issue does exist, I am pretty sure there is hard evidence, otherwise he would have denied it. I feel there are too many specifics for this to be an empty allegation. There was a story that Flav visited the Macca motorhome (or whatever it is in Ronspeak) and signed some kind of agreement, which Ron tried to present at the WMSC hearing. I was afraid that in return Ron had agreed not to "complain" to the FIA, but apparently not so.

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There are some holes in their article especially when they say that it wasn't proved that McLaren used Ferrari data, when we all know that their drivers were using Ferrari data during testing.
So yeah a "reliable" and "unbiased" source they are. :s

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Originally Posted by ioan

There are some holes in their article especially when they say that it wasn't proved that McLaren used Ferrari data, when we all know that their drivers were using Ferrari data during testing.
So yeah a "reliable" and "unbiased" source they are. :s

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I know of episodes of Only Fools & Horses that get repeated less times on UKTV Gold than you repeat the 'Ferrari Data' chestnut.

:rolleyes: ;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Well, the FIA could pull the same trick as they are going to try with McLaren. "That component looks dodgy, lets stuff 'em"

Unfortunately, the FIA set a very dangerous precedent pandering to the Ferrari machine, and cannot now be seen to be doing anything other than blowing the whistle on the whole incestuous world that is F1. It will be fun watching Charlie Farley boys looking for those elusive needles within all those haystacks. :p :

You never know, Max might decide he fancies retirement after all........ ;)

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The FIA is not bound, on any decision, to previous case law so precedent means nothing. They could find a Williams with parts stamped "Made by Ferrari" all over it, copies of the entire 2008 testing program, and phone records of a 100 calls from Massa and do nothing at all or fine Sir Frank $1.00 and tell him to take the parts off the car.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

The FIA is not bound, on any decision, to previous case law so precedent means nothing. They could find a Williams with parts stamped "Made by Ferrari" all over it, copies of the entire 2008 testing program, and phone records of a 100 calls from Massa and do nothing at all or fine Sir Frank $1.00 and tell him to take the parts off the car.

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Good point.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Mclaren's defence of the original spying charge was that the MP4/22 was totally different to the F2007 and so the info was unusable.

If they, Mclaren, are going to accuse Renault of using the data they have allegedly received, doesn't that also prove that Mclaren lied at the September hearing?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

If they, Mclaren, are going to accuse Renault of using the data they have allegedly received, doesn't that also prove that Mclaren lied at the September hearing?

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Do they need to prove they used it? Being in possession of it, as was the FIA case with McLaren re the Ferrari papers, ought to be enough for a $100m fine and constructors point removal?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

If they, Mclaren, are going to accuse Renault of using the data they have allegedly received, doesn't that also prove that Mclaren lied at the September hearing?

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Could you expand on that please tamburello?

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

The FIA is not bound, on any decision, to previous case law so precedent means nothing.

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And therein rests a real problem. With rules being open to interpretation, and penalties being inconsistent, how can fairness be applied consistently for all competitors?

HOw come Ferrari is not getting involved. This "McLaren data" could be the "Ferrari data" that McLaren was in possesion of?

The plot thickens.

Perhaps Coughlan was just a middle man, between Ferrari and Renault!

I remember reports that some of the data had been incorporated into the 2007 Renault. Looking now I found this (http://www.duemotori.com/news/f1/175...w_spy_case.php)

"Lawyers for McLaren are believed to have told the FIA that Renault copied aspects of McLaren's cooling and electronic systems this year after the defecting engineer took with him to the Enstone based team three unspecified 'disks' of detailed data."

Have to wonder how McLaren found out about Renault electronics, do they have a mole in Renault, do you suppose? :D

But sniggering aside, you have to think Flav's only possible defence is that he told the FIA and McLaren as soon as he found out.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Do they need to prove they used it?

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No. Same as with Stepneygate. All I was pointing out was that Mclaren's own defence to the orginal Ferrari dossier inquiry was that the info could not be transferred to the MP4/22. That's the same with this current situation....

....unless.....

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

Could you expand on that please tamburello?

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By Mclaren's own logic, the info cannot be of any use.

If the info is claimed by Mclaren to have been used, then they lied to the FIA about the use of data not relating to their own car.

Doesn't MAX want closer racing and homologated parts on the cars. Letting the cheating go on, would accomplish that very quickly and everyone would be driving a Fer-ren-laren.

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

Looking now I found this (http://www.duemotori.com/news/f1/175...w_spy_case.php)

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I was not aware that at any time during Ross's tenure at the Scuderia was there an issue between him and Todt.

This year has shown that is all is not well between Luca and Jean though. Does that mean JT will not be working for the road car devision for much longer either?

Is this the beginning of the end again for Ferrari for a while?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

No. Same as with Stepneygate. All I was pointing out was that Mclaren's own defence to the orginal Ferrari dossier inquiry was that the info could not be transferred to the MP4/22. That's the same with this current situation....

....unless.....



By Mclaren's own logic, the info cannot be of any use.

If the info is claimed by Mclaren to have been used, then they lied to the FIA about the use of data not relating to their own car.

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Could you please book a few minutes to speak at the hearing ?
You could straighten a lot of things out with a few words .

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Originally Posted by tamburello

No. Same as with Stepneygate. All I was pointing out was that Mclaren's own defence to the orginal Ferrari dossier inquiry was that the info could not be transferred to the MP4/22. That's the same with this current situation....

....unless.....



By Mclaren's own logic, the info cannot be of any use.

If the info is claimed by Mclaren to have been used, then they lied to the FIA about the use of data not relating to their own car.

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I see your logic.

There are some differences though, as it appears that the case against McLaren was that they had in their (or implied to be in their possesion by the fact that their employee had the dossier) possession data belonging to a rival team. There were no specific allegations as to how that info had been incorporated into the car.

With the Renault case however, it appears - prima facie - that specific solutions incorporated on the McLaren car(s) and subsequently found to be incorporated into the Renault (when an employee left McLaren and went and worked for the Reggie) can (theoretically) be shown to be the case.

This I would say is a strong case for proof of the use of another teams IP in the Reggies current cars, and is potentially quite damaging to them in respect of the possible punishment this could incur, given the McLaren punishment.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

No. Same as with Stepneygate. All I was pointing out was that Mclaren's own defence to the orginal Ferrari dossier inquiry was that the info could not be transferred to the MP4/22. That's the same with this current situation....

....unless.....

By Mclaren's own logic, the info cannot be of any use.

If the info is claimed by Mclaren to have been used, then they lied to the FIA about the use of data not relating to their own car.

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I think McLaren did lie, and got shown up, for example over Coughlan's role in design, the strength of his relationship with Stepney, and Pedro's input to the simulator. However I also believe Pedro when he said the data was comparatively trivial and the kind that normally gets passed around F1. A 780 page dossier sounds a lot, but most of it would be irrelevant to McLaren.

I think that also applies to the McLaren-to-Renault data, and that McLaren wouldn't normally have made a complaint about it to the FIA. I think the reason they have done is that they have detected that Max is still out to get them.

And, to keep some perspective, on the subject of lying in F1 of course we remember the FIA spokesperson after the first WMSC meeting: "I can confirm that the verdict was unanimous". :)

Could it also be feasable that if they were getting info, and it has been proven that Mclaren had ferrari data, then Renault may have also gotten some of this info with the Mclaren Info as such a double whammy????
Far Fetched but plausable

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

Why now? I wonder if McLaren have been trying to get Max to go easy on their 2008 'negative points allocation', and got "no" for an answer?

I am pleased with this development, anyway, everyone knew Renault had the data and used it in their cars, so it was quite unfair that McLaren were being singled out. Not to mention Flav's hypocrisy about it.

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With all respect pass meat issue, it's not really something that everyone knew about.