Sorry, but I have 5-bucks that says Champ Car does not answer the bell in 2008...

Before the flamers start in with me, let me say I am a long-time (since mid-1960's) avid follower of open wheel racing. I have attended OW races at all So Cal locations from Riverside to Ontario to Long Beach to Fontana plus all other west coast locations (Laguna Seca, Phoenix, etc...). I have also traveled to all Canadian races (Vancouver to Montreal to Toronto). There is no bigger fan of the original Champ car model of OW racing than me, as I favor a series that challenges with small ovals, large ovals, road and street courses. The Champ car I remember had the best technology, best drivers, best venues (all, arguably) in the world. I have seen every great from Gurney to Foyt to Andretti - I am not a D&G'er; if you accuse me of this, it would be inaccurate.

However, I am a realist and a businessman and I can see the writing on the wall. I doubt Champ Car will answer the bell in 2008...

As Mr. Eagle Eye wrote (and after about 5-years of lurking daily on the board, I can say he is the most accurate poster here), there are some serious, some might say fatal, issues in play for CCWS at this time:

-Three canceled races (And Vegas in the lurch, unless it is purchased by the three Chumps, EE's words, I'll charitably say "amigos")

You can spin the loss of San Jose venue all you want, with a trade to Laguna Seca but that's bull, LS is way out in the boonies, no one has gone there in the past (20-k max. last crowd) and on one will go there in the future either, that is a loser "trade" if ever there was one. Better racing course, Yes, but who cares when nobody will be there to see it.

-Pay for time TV partner
-Continued Dismal TV ratings
-Seats to the highest bidder

Have to add in that except an over-the-hill Paul Tracy, there is not ONE recognizable name driver to the average joe !!!

-Loss of respect and coverage from those in the Motorsport media

Anybody been reading Phillps and Miller lately ???

-Lack of series promotion
-Lack of driver or team promotion
-No title sponsorship

No comes word that the gIRL series is may ne getting a very strong title sponsor, "Anheuser-Busch and Budweiser beer". CCWS has no title sponsor and frankly no prospects for getting any.

-Low car count
-Teams folding, or leaving the series
-Top sponsors leaving

CDW is the latest sponsor to bail. At best they go to another team (NHL) but the damage is done, RuSport is gonzo.

-Being sued left and right
-Owners at each others throats (almost literally)

Scumbag Paul G. putting X-rated video website and sleazy strip clubs on as sponsers. Count me and my family "out". Just because he likes to go to Spearmint Rhino, it is not (!!!) an acceptable sponser.

-Inept management
-Loss of three cars (at the moment)

Check out RuSport, from 2-car "contender" in 2006 to "gone" in 2008. Conquest, Coyne, how will they be hanging on ??? I see only about 12 cars at most rolling over from this year to 2008.

Furthermore, the gIRL series is now offering a more competitive financial assistance package for teams that compete in the entire series.

Man do I hate those crapwagons, they are ugly, low tech, and although they go 'roundy-roundy' pretty well, they are pigs on a road course. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, the call hasn't already been made and Danica Patrick hasn't been a winner. Don't even start me in with how much I hate Nascab...

Yeah, I know they are selling tickets for the LB GP now, but I wouldn't send them any money unless I didn't plan to not get it back.

The I-500 is the 8,000-lb. gorilla that will drive the other league into success although the other weak sister series events will be dragged along. CCWS has no event to counter the I-500 and that has and will be their ultimate downfall.

Alright.....sanguin, weefly, sandfly.....what say you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SoCalPVguy

Before the flamers start in with me, let me say I am a long-time (since mid-1960's) avid follower of open wheel racing. I have attended OW races at all So Cal locations from Riverside to Ontario to Long Beach to Fontana plus all other west coast locations (Laguna Seca, Phoenix, etc...). I have also traveled to all Canadian races (Vancouver to Montreal to Toronto). There is no bigger fan of the original Champ car model of OW racing than me, as I favor a series that challenges with small ovals, large ovals, road and street courses. The Champ car I remember had the best technology, best drivers, best venues (all, arguably) in the world. I have seen every great from Gurney to Foyt to Andretti - I am not a D&G'er; if you accuse me of this, it would be inaccurate.

However, I am a realist and a businessman and I can see the writing on the wall. I doubt Champ Car will answer the bell in 2008...

As Mr. Eagle Eye wrote (and after about 5-years of lurking daily on the board, I can say he is the most accurate poster here), there are some serious, some might say fatal, issues in play for CCWS at this time:

-Three canceled races (And Vegas in the lurch, unless it is purchased by the three Chumps, EE's words, I'll charitably say "amigos")

You can spin the loss of San Jose venue all you want, with a trade to Laguna Seca but that's bull, LS is way out in the boonies, no one has gone there in the past (20-k max. last crowd) and on one will go there in the future either, that is a loser "trade" if ever there was one. Better racing course, Yes, but who cares when nobody will be there to see it.

-Pay for time TV partner
-Continued Dismal TV ratings
-Seats to the highest bidder

Have to add in that except an over-the-hill Paul Tracy, there is not ONE recognizable name driver to the average joe !!!

-Loss of respect and coverage from those in the Motorsport media

Anybody been reading Phillps and Miller lately ???

-Lack of series promotion
-Lack of driver or team promotion
-No title sponsorship

No comes word that the gIRL series is may ne getting a very strong title sponsor, "Anheuser-Busch and Budweiser beer". CCWS has no title sponsor and frankly no prospects for getting any.

-Low car count
-Teams folding, or leaving the series
-Top sponsors leaving

CDW is the latest sponsor to bail. At best they go to another team (NHL) but the damage is done, RuSport is gonzo.

-Being sued left and right
-Owners at each others throats (almost literally)

Scumbag Paul G. putting X-rated video website and sleazy strip clubs on as sponsers. Count me and my family "out". Just because he likes to go to Spearmint Rhino, it is not (!!!) an acceptable sponser.

-Inept management
-Loss of three cars (at the moment)

Check out RuSport, from 2-car "contender" in 2006 to "gone" in 2008. Conquest, Coyne, how will they be hanging on ??? I see only about 12 cars at most rolling over from this year to 2008.

Furthermore, the gIRL series is now offering a more competitive financial assistance package for teams that compete in the entire series.

Man do I hate those crapwagons, they are ugly, low tech, and although they go 'roundy-roundy' pretty well, they are pigs on a road course. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, the call hasn't already been made and Danica Patrick hasn't been a winner. Don't even start me in with how much I hate Nascab...

Yeah, I know they are selling tickets for the LB GP now, but I wouldn't send them any money unless I didn't plan to not get it back.

The I-500 is the 8,000-lb. gorilla that will drive the other league into success although the other weak sister series events will be dragged along. CCWS has no event to counter the I-500 and that has and will be their ultimate downfall.

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I have serious doubts as to whether CC will answer the bell in 2008. Moreover, whether it does or not, I'm pretty sure I don't care.

That said, a couple of points:

1. I'll wait to crown "Mr. EagleEye" as "the most accurate poster on this board" until NHL is proved to be a pack of liars and EE's "sure thing" that NHL is going to the IRL in 2008 is proven right. He harped on and on so sanctimoniously about it and yet I've seen nary a peep from Mr. EagleEye since NHL's unequivocal press release came out a fortnight or so ago.

2. I keep reading vitriolic invective aimed at Gentilozzi regarding these immoral influences like strip clubs and porno films he has brought into the series. I must not be paying attention because I have no idea what anyone is talking about here. Are they sponsors? If you're going to attack the man, at least use the plentiful material that is well known, and don't bother digging around for other stuff.

Hey Sanguin, you gonna come defend your bosses or what?

They are in really sad shapoe, and this series needs to get its act together RIGHT FREAKING NOW.

As pessimistic as I am about the current state of affairs at Champ Car, I still think it is likely it will answer the bell for 2008. The amigos are so arrogant they may never admit defeat and will do anything to drag it on for as long as they have a place to play. However, the big question is in what form and for how long. If the fall continues as it has and a few teams depart, most promoters will want nothing to do with them, in the US or anywhere else. They may be stuck with a few cars and the events they control themselves until sanity sinks in. Until then, it has devolved into a fancy club race for a couple teams owned by a few rich guys to race among themselves for bragging rights. No one else seems to care.

Of course, Monday morning I expect the usual cheerleaders to jump in and tell us about the wonderful future CC has and how it will rise from the current ashes. It ain't no Phoenix. The only things flying around CC headquarters are a few buzzards waiting to pick at the carcass.

More bad news... AR1 is rumouring that Champ Car has delayed their 2008 race schedule originally slated to be issued mid-October but now is likely to come out is maybe by mid-November. The later is goes, the more likely it is to be much reduced or non-existant.

BTW is the CCWS season over, oh wait we're still in the 6-week break between events, forget the press, even I have forgotten about it...

Mr. 994... hey, you're a great poster too (I admired Greg Moore also). It is a fact that CCWS considered a team sponsorship by Adult Video News (AVN). Take a look at their website... Link:
Warning Not Safe For Work if you follow any of their sublinks...

Also it is also a fact that PG had Spearmint Rhino strip clubs logos on the side pods for the Europe races but took them off under protest from either Pettit or maybe KK. AR1 had a picture up for a while but it was so embarrassng that CCWS asked them to take it down. See link to Spearmint Rhino website (definately not safe for work !!!)


As you can see, neither of these entities are sponsors that IMHO should be associated w/ CCWS and it is my understanding both were being pushed by PG.

Likewise, I am a little pessimistic about the 2008 season. However, I believe that Champ Car will run a "full season." How the season/events unfold, is certainly questionable. Even Miller and Philips have not conceeded that the 2008 season will not take place. There are still venues that generate money and that is one reason alone as to why CCWS will begin the season.

Champ Car can survive without the Indy 500. These next few months will determine the future of Champ Car. If Champ Car were folding, why is KK looking at Germany and Dubai as possible racetracks?

I am going to hang in there until the bitter end. Arguing that the IRL is better off is far short from the truth. They are certainly doing better than CC, but that is nothing to be proud of.

Hello all, time for me to pipe in again.

So, SoCalPVguy, you think CC is not long for this world. You may be right; I won't argue that point. But I find your reasoning flawed. You start by listing many reasons for CC's demise:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SoCalPVguy

-Pay for time TV partner
-Continued Dismal TV ratings
-Seats to the highest bidder
-Loss of respect and coverage from those in the Motorsport media
-Lack of series promotion
-Lack of driver or team promotion
-No title sponsorship
-Low car count
-Teams folding, or leaving the series
-Top sponsors leaving
-Being sued left and right
-Owners at each others throats (almost literally)
-Inept management
-Loss of three cars (at the moment)

---

Now let us say CC somehow got their act together and rectified these problems - but according to you...

Quote:

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CCWS has no event to counter the I-500 and that has and will be their ultimate downfall.

---

...it won't matter.

In other words, the first 90% of your post is just a rant, because, you say, the lack of a 500 counterpart will kill them regardless.

Frankly, I believe that a well-managed series without that 500 is perfectly viable. What will be (and is) CC's undoing, is lack of said management. All those other reasons you enumerate are simply consequences of the inept management you speak of - or more precisely, IMHO, the non-existent management.

If there was truly some merit to the argument that the 500 is so vitally important, CART would have imploded long before it did, and CCWS would have been stillborn -- AND, the IRL would have been a roaring success almost right out of the gate.

In fact, the IRL has little if any success to show for itself, what with having the 500 and the paying TV deal and the dozen years of Anton tossing hundreds of millions at it and, more recently, the heavy-hitter teams. You mention CC's poor car count - well what about IRL's? 18 full-timers this past season; not very impressive. And the vaunted 500 itself struggles to get the infamous 33; the last few years have seen upwards of a dozen entrants that have no business being on the track. This should be a pretty clear indication that the 500 is not what will make or break a series. Proper management is the bottom line here. Unfortunately, neither series is endowed with it. That Anton has to offer "appearance" money to bribe teams to join up is proof enough that IRL is not healthy.

If Anton had ever got his head out of his behind, and woken up and smelled the coffee, CART/CCWS would have been long gone. Conversely, if the CART powers that were had not been ignorant and greedy, the 500 might have been back on the CART schedule. Even now, if the OWRS owners realized you have to spend money to make money, and had actually done it, the series could be thriving - to wit:

- had they signed Allmendinger (the $3 million would have been a "cheap" investment)
- had they kept Nelson (he had built up a fan following)
- ditto Timo Glock the year before (Rookie of the Year, no less)
- had they kept Ranger (he won a Championship in Canadian Cabs this year!)
- had they "subsidized" 2nd cars for RuSport, Rocketsports and Conquest (that would have made 20)
- had they "subsidized" Polestar or Gelles or Hylton (24-26 cars on the grid!!)
- had they put up decent race purses and points fund (the "subsidies")
- had they invested to keep Denver (and forgot about China)
- had they even thought about getting proper promotion and PR people - who might then have secured enough sponsorship to cover the costs of the above -- with 24 car grids, they would have had something to sell!!!!!

Now, if NHL does defect to IRL, you can turn out the lights on CC; for sure. I'm just not convinced they're leaving (Eagle Eye notwithstanding); they might be making contingency plans for a CCWS no-show, but if the series survives, I think they'll be there.

And (first I've heard of it), if Bud does title sponsor IRL and does it to the nines, CC could be in a world of hurt - but again, I see no evidence of that coming to pass.

I believe KK and gang will give it at least one more shot. They will answer the bell for 2008. Problem is, they're looking at Europe to try to save an American series; and, to me at least, that's the equivalent of pizzing into the wind. If they don't wake up and smell the coffee, 2008 will be the curtain call.

Cheers.

edit --- SoCalPVguy, you could consider losing all those font tags that do nothing; just a thought...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SoCalPVguy

Man do I hate those crapwagons, they are ugly, low tech, and although they go 'roundy-roundy' pretty well, they are pigs on a road course. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, the call hasn't already been made and Danica Patrick hasn't been a winner. Don't even start me in with how much I hate Nascab...

[/size][/font]

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I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.

I think that keeping the costs down is probably more important then been at the cutting edge of technology - particularly when you have no manufacturers in CC. Manufacturers will be the only ones to finance R&D in motorsport so for a series that has no manufacturers....????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McLeagle

Hello all, time for me to pipe in again.

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Well, look who's back?

I'd also like to pipe in, but....I've said enough about CC.

Good you back, McL.

hello Mr. McLeagal, than you for your response. Well, it IS a pretty long list of "problems", do you really think they can all be fixed by next year ? Or can they all be fixed at all ?

I am afraid that, yes, long-term, the lack of the Indy 500 will ultimatley allow the gIRL to at least continue to exist even with CCWS continuing (thus prolonging the 'split' and exacerbating the current problems such as lack of sponsorship, confused viewers and press coverage) or prosper, especially if CCWS does not continue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SoCalPVguy

hello Mr. McLeagal, than you for your response. Well, it IS a pretty long list of "problems", do you really think they can all be fixed by next year ? Or can they all be fixed at all ?

I am afraid that, yes, long-term, the lack of the Indy 500 will ultimatley allow the gIRL to at least continue to exist even with CCWS continuing (thus prolonging the 'split' and exacerbating the current problems such as lack of sponsorship, confused viewers and press coverage) or prosper, especially if CCWS does not continue.

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Glad to have you back too McL...though I'm siding with EEye on NHL taking a walk as I'm pretty certain PN's hanging it up after this season. As far as the I500 and CCWS not surviving without it, I think it's more about the fact that securing sponsorship even when you have the 500 and can announce your schedule on time, is getting more difficult by the year and thus far, no one has been able to truly counter that issue. KK, despite his own blather and the kool-aid drinkers beliefs, cannot fund a failing business model forever either. So really, there are issues here that clearly hit the management side as all have agreed, but haven't hit the larger problems connected to money. Europe is definitely NOT the answer because the series getting sanction fees for a year or two does not help the teams find sponsors that will spend enough to make them solvent. The recent A1GP/Ferrari deal is also a major stumbling block abroad because it won't take long for David Clare to go after more races and run not just in the off season. Notwithstanding the fact that tracks over there have already been booked for next season and CCWS is in no position to upend anyone at this juncture, especially when they're holding their hand out just to enter a dialogue. Finally, if KK/GF are going to call it a day, they'll have to figure a pretty clever way to get the best value out of the assets they purchased that were supposed to "cement" CCWS in racing for many years to come...IMO

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike15

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

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Lets see...the series cancels 3 races this year, teams are switching drivers at breakneck pace from week-to-week, KK's going to court next week and the scheduled is being delayed for at least another month. Yep, you're right, just alot of doom and gloom talk for no good reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SoCalPVguy

Also it is also a fact that PG had Spearmint Rhino strip clubs logos on the side pods for the Europe races but took them off under protest from either Pettit or maybe KK. AR1 had a picture up for a while but it was so embarrassng that CCWS asked them to take it down. See link to Spearmint Rhino website (definately not safe for work !!!)

As you can see, neither of these entities are sponsors that IMHO should be associated w/ CCWS and it is my understanding both were being pushed by PG.

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I believe it was Larry Flynt's Hustler clubs on the side pods. If I recall the photo correctly, it was a beaver or some such creature, in top hat, tails and a walking stick as the logo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike15

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.

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LOL!!! Nearly spit my coffee all over the keyboard...definitely one of the funniest posts of the last six months, or at least since Sanguin joined :) Who's the sponsor Preparation H...to cure the redness and swelling all over the place :) ...too funny

Mike 15

25 days and counting....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike15

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.

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Mike buddy, you are either the most optimistic fella in the world, or completely missing what happened this year.

The fact is that SoCal there wouldn't get me to take his bet, because while I agree that Champ Car will take the bell, I wouldn't want to stake my money on it. Maybe your money, but not MY money.

I think if Champ Car was run professionally, competentantly and had money spent THIS last year on putting more teams on the grid and retaining name drivers, coupled with a schedule and better choices in their promotors, they would have a chance. This last year was the acid test I think. If they had grown this last year, they would turn the corner. In any business venture, if its the third and fourth years that often are the points where the business either leaps forward, or dies. We are watching death, unless new sugar daddies show up and plough money into this. The sad thing is, KK and the Amigo's made good moves in the first few years, and did a good thing putting the Panoz on the grid THIS year. Then they quit on this series. They quit on their fans, they just quit on themselves.

Oh sure, a few of you are saying, "but they are getting events in Europe, they are going back to Laguna Seca..." and to this I say, they are trying to milk a couple of cows before selling the milk and walking away. When they allowed Ranger to walk, when they did nothing to address the lack of entries, and when they have not indicated any new teams are buying cars, that says VOLUMES about the business model and where it is going. They have done no real solid promotion, their webpage has been often out of date, their promoting partners have been half hearted in their web sites and selling of tickets, and there has been just no buzz. Couple that with the childish antics of booting Robin Miller from his hard card status and their general lack of media presence,and the worst TV coverage for the series in YEARS (no one needs to hear my complaints about lack of TV quality)and this series is just committing suicide. There was no reason for it.

SoCal guy, you are pretty much right on the money, and you come from a similar viewpoint to me...a fan who is frustrated and hurt by the lack of professionalism and marketing savvy by this series....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heelntoe

LOL!!! Nearly spit my coffee all over the keyboard...definitely one of the funniest posts of the last six months, or at least since Sanguin joined :) Who's the sponsor Preparation H...to cure the redness and swelling all over the place :) ...too funny

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I think one of the few possible saving graces could come in the form of long term deals for race venues. CC needs to out there now (in light of the deplyed schedule announcement) cementing deals for the 08 calander and ensuring that these deals also cement the 09 list. this way CC can announce the 08 lineup (albeit late) and also say right away that this is the schedule for 09, then we may have a chance to lure new sponsors in based on the very early announcement of the 09 calander. the teams and the series can plan well into 09 right now, and that is beneficial in all regards. Not too sure of CC would see thsi far ahead but if I were out there negotiating new events for 08, part of that discussion would have to be about the committment and date for 09 so that it can be announced right away so everyone can plan. Hey if you are having the discussion with a promoter or city, spend 5 more minutes discussing the following year and confirmed date right now. My 2 cents.

That is a good idea, Mike, but when you're up to your butt in alligators, it's hard to remember that your original objective was to drain the swamp.

CC is in a tough position to talk about '08, much less about '09. It's had three canceled races in '07 and I'm sure there were contracts in place for those, so what is a CC contract worth? Then there's San Jose as a "model" for a tough sell for street races.

IMO, '08 is the most difficult schedule CC has ever had to put together...virtually all of the outside promoters have issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark123

I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.

I think that keeping the costs down is probably more important then been at the cutting edge of technology - particularly when you have no manufacturers in CC. Manufacturers will be the only ones to finance R&D in motorsport so for a series that has no manufacturers....????

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Lets not forget that a qualifying lap and race weekend is a LOT different than one guy testing out there by himself not trying to beat anyone and NOT trying to crash

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cart750hp

Alright.....sanguin, weefly, sandfly.....what say you?

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Has wisdom left the room again? CHRYSLER IS STILL ALIVE!! This thread reminds me of the circling vultures threads back in 2002-03. All the talk about road kill and yet to see the carcass.

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark123

I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.

I think that keeping the costs down is probably more important then been at the cutting edge of technology - particularly when you have no manufacturers in CC. Manufacturers will be the only ones to finance R&D in motorsport so for a series that has no manufacturers....????

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mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike15

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

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mike15, you have an interesting perspective on things. I have a question for you: just why did Champ Car lose these venues in 2007? Did it have anything at all to do with their lack of commercial viability? IMO, more current races look certain to follow them into oblivion in 2008. As for free tickets, they were plentiful in Vegas last April for the Champ Car season opener. On the subject of the "free" tickets in the IRL, it does seem that someone usually pays for these "free" IRL tickets before they are given away. This is the way it has been done since the heyday of CART. I guess that was okay then but its not okay now, eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike15

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

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First of all, PLEASE don't try to fool yourself into thinking there is one iota fewer free tickets in CCWS than in the ICS. There is empherical evidence all over the place to support that position.

If your premise was correct, then why isn't the CCWS attendance parlaying itself into better TV veiwership? While you may try to minimize this, the TV viewership is where the sponsors, who make it possible to actually race, get a return on their investment.

With no new sponsors announced, and no real opportunity to get sponsors right now because there is no schedule (and won't be for at least another month) just exactly where is the money coming from to put new teams on the grid? Where are the orders for new DP-01s for next year?

I think the crux of your post is the comment that if CCWS goes under, then there is no alternative for you. With that being the case, then there is absolutely no harm in you casting an eye to the situation that defies logic.

The split was not going to continue forever. Whatever way it ended, there were fans that were going to be lost on one side or the other. It's a shame, really, that if CCWS goes under, your have taken the stance you have. Because, the fact is, that if CCWS does go under, regardless of your imagination, American Open Wheel will indeed continue.

It seems that whenever that SJ speaks and projects a date of sorts, the 2008 Schedule being the latest, it always misses the mark. Wonder if he sold dodgy used-cars back in the day. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?

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You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike15

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

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Yes, the paying fans will be the support of the series,just as ALMS counts on it. They also buy tv time and and have bad ratings. It's about the fan support.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pits4me

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

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my initial point is that the IRL car is not a pig on the road course, even though its giving up a lot of HP to the CC. The IRL is now a spec series, basically running de-tuned Honda engines to extend the mileage between rebuilds. the course configuration at Mid Ohio was very similar, and the one mile oval was the obviously the same for both series.

It is not a scientific comparison - but it is interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pits4me

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

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Um, he is using lap times, not average speed...track measurement has nothing to do with it...

Of the three canceled races this year, the only 'real' cancellation was Phoenix. Denver was not going to happen from the start of the season. China, just like South Korea never got off the ground. Personally, the cancellation of the Chinese race was somewhat insignificant. Also, are we that concerned about the Chinese market? In the future, China may be a great place to be, but not at the current time.

On the other hand, the Phoenix cancellation sent shockwaves throughout the Champ Car community. I was looking forward to attending the Phoenix race. It would have been a great time to race because no other major series is racing during this time.

Surely, the cancellation of any race is bad for any series and even more detrimental to our series because of its current state. I was at the Vegas race this year and the race has a lot of potential. It would be sad for this event to end. The race needs to be held on another day other than Easter. There was a lot of excitement in the air and if the race is promoted well, it could easily be another Long Beach. Who does not want to be in Vegas for a race?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pits4me

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

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pits4me, you are right that the IRL and Champ Car use different methods for calculating lap lengths which results in a difference in average speeds if the the lap times are identical. What does not change, however, is the lap time itself, since both series obviously use the same measure of time, and the start finish line doesn't move! Lap time Vs. lap time is where you can compare the relative perfomance of the two types of cars. At some places, the Champ Cars are clearly faster due to the HP, push-to-pass (and the fact that the Dallaras are so dammed ugly). I posted the Milwaukee and Mid-Ohio times since it surprised me when the comparison was mentioned somewhere else on these boards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beachbum

Of course, Monday morning I expect the usual cheerleaders to jump in and tell us about the wonderful future CC has and how it will rise from the current ashes. It ain't no Phoenix. The only things flying around CC headquarters are a few buzzards waiting to pick at the carcass.

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I stopped by the Champcar headquarters today to pickup some papers....didn't see one buzzard flying around (unless you consider a well known IRL owner along with someone else with him I saw in the lobby waiting for a meeting today buzzards)

[quote="mark123"]I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.
quote]

Please give all the facts...Mid Ohio has since been repaved which lead to the quicker times also. The repaved track was worth several seconds. Put a new DP01 on that course and it would be quite a bit faster than the Lola that ran in 1996

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike15

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.

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Funny how all the D&Gers have free rein here on the Champcar board yet if the same happens on the IRL board warnings are sent. Appears that there are two sets of rules by the moderators. Just expressing my personal opionion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FerrrariF1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark123

I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.
quote]

The repaved track was worth several seconds.

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Several seconds? lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tbyars

Because, the fact is, that if CCWS does go under, regardless of your imagination, American Open Wheel will indeed continue.

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You forgot the words "to suck" at the end of that sentence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FerrrariF1

Funny how all the D&Gers have free rein here on the Champcar board yet if the same happens on the IRL board warnings are sent. Appears that there are two sets of rules by the moderators. Just expressing my personal opionion.

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I wish there actually WAS a double standard on these boards, and that involved the banning of annoying codswallop like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?

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Well the last time Champcar raced at Mid Ohio they did not have push to pass. The fastest official times by Champcar in Mid Ohio happened in 2000 when the pole speed was timed at 1:05:347 and fastest race lap I beleive was 2001 at 1:07:669.

I think Walker Racing did some testing in Mid Ohio this year and wonder if they posted any times

And don't forget a repaved track.