I want to put the politics aside for a moment, and ask a simple question: Who in here is sick of the split, and what can we, collectively speaking as open wheel race fans, do about it? I'm interested in hear from as many people as possible.
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I want to put the politics aside for a moment, and ask a simple question: Who in here is sick of the split, and what can we, collectively speaking as open wheel race fans, do about it? I'm interested in hear from as many people as possible.
WE can't do anything. Tony George is the only person who could do it but he doesn't want to.
i wouldn't agree with old3fan - it takes agreement from two parties before a merge can happen.
I agree, and as long as he has another half billion or so to burn, it will continue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old3Fan
I beg to differ....he is NOT the ONLY person that can do anything about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old3Fan
Champ Car World Series should give up the ghost and as in Robin Miller's words:
"sell it's assets to Tony George and save money, if not open wheel racing"
We as fans can't really do anything about it except vote with our pocketbooks.
All I know is, I have spent ZERO dollars on Champ Car events or goods.
This year I have spent about $1,700 on IRL related expenses including attending 3 races and buying tons of t shirts, hats, decals, etc etc. and being an active member of Downforce.
Also, I go out of my way to send my business and spend my dollars with IRL sponsors. And it's really not that hard to do with Target, 7 Eleven, Fuji, Aamco, Motorola, etc. etc.
I enjoy the racing and follow maybe 2 drivers at most in Champ Car but not enough to spend any money on it. TV is about it when it comes to CCWS for me.
If Champ Car had the Indy 500, it would be a different story. I would be spending all my money with Champ Car.
would it get their attention of nobody were to watch or attend the races anymore? bernie ecclestone always said he couldn't care less about the crowds, it's the tv ratings that matter. i've been to a few champ car and IRL races and i have to say that most of the people i met at the track hardly knew anything about the drivers or teams but just wanted to see what was going on. they obviously hardly ever watched a race on tv, so if what ecclestone says also holds truth on the IRL and champ car, maybe not watching the races would force the owners to merge?
i'm wondering, though, with villeneuve, franchitti and montoya all going stock car racing, will some american NASCAR drivers make the switch to open wheels? i recently read zanardi was asked to join vasser's team. this must mean that there are some teams out there that can actually afford to pay a driver to race for them. since it's obvious both series are only popular in north america and they obviously need more north american drivers in competitive rides for the general public to take an interest in open wheel racing, why then do teams like penske or ganassi not hire some canadian or american drivers? seems to me the european and south american invasion coincided with CART's decline. now that franchitti et al are going to NASCAR, why not put some top level stock car guys in the penske, AGR or ganassi dallara's?
I think it is largely out of our hands.... TV numbers are practically nothing for CCWS and hardly much better for the bulk of the IRL season (and it is only this year that the meat of the IRL season has been significantly better rated than Champcar....) yet this has not forced a change....
Both series have lost many non-performing events (events that should have done well) and this has not made a difference.....
CCWS lost all of its manufacturer support - that has not forced a change yet....
Both series are one chassis, one engine "spec" series - this has not forced a change...
The Indy 500 doesn't sell out anymore.... this has not forced a change...
Top rated racing journalists have been slamming both series forthe past 10 years - this has not forced a change...
Fans have been actively calling for one series for nearly 10 years - that has not forced achange....
I am begining to wonder if the principals of either side are sane - they have each other by the neck and they are both turning blue...
I think the only thing we can really do is sit and wait - unless someone out there has more racing dedication, business acumen and MONEY than either "side" and wants to start a third series that will bury both the CCWS and IRL (I am more and more thinking that this might be the only way out....)
yeah, trouble is that both series are run by very stubborn individuals that refuse to give way and who unfortunately have the necessary funding to keep both series afloat without good prospects for the future.
as it was said before, if kalkhoven and forsythe really loved american open wheel racing, they'd sell out to the IERL, which looks much more than CART than champ car does, anyway.
I am not sure there is anything we can really do as fans, we can just watch and hope. When CART went bankrupt, I thought it would actually be a good thing, because I already saw that it was going to evolve into the Cart ver. 2.0 that it is now becoming. I knew Penske et al had decided the way to change was working from the inside, and that has been what has come to pass. I was disheartened when OWRS was formed, because I knew all the problems and damage would continue.
Now, I am a complete outsider and only a fan, but from the outside, it would appear that Champcar is faltering, with the exception of Europe. They could build on that of course, but then Who are they? Are they an F1 feeder? Are they the series that claims history to 1909? There seems to be no direction or purpose, and I question the need for their existence, because as far as I can tell, they only exist to spite Tony George. Ultimately I don't think that's enough to sustain them, because like it or not, AOW needs the Indy 500 to build around, and it needs it's most diehard fans to not be sniping at each other all the time.
That said, a merger and one series tomorrow does not magically make everything alright, but it would at least be a point to stop the bleeding and start the healing so to speak. We all need to work together and all this hate and blame and name-calling don't do anyone any good. (In fact it turns off a lot of potential new fans. Imagine hanging around a divorced person that blames everything that's wrong in their life on the ex and you'll know what I mean.) Forgiveness is divine, so we have to forgive Tony George, or Penske, or Rahal, or Honda, or KK, or Paul Newman for whatever sins they might have done against open wheel, because we all need to work together. A note on forgiveness, if you have wronged me and I forgive you, I do it for me and my well-being, not for you, otherwise hatred and resentment might build up inside of me and cause me damage. From the outside, there's a lot of hatred and resentment in open-wheel, it doesn't do any of us any good.
Back on-topic, Chapparral asked what can we do. As I said before, I don't believe there is much we can do unless we work for one of the prospective series. I do see that Champcar is at a tipping point in my opinion. Tony George appears to be interested in only waiting them out and putting them out of business, which would only lead to more bitterness I am afraid. In my job, I am a salesman, and more to the point, I am a broker, a middleman. I am the guy everone's always trying to cut out. I am often told, by a prospective customer, "we don't need you, we know what we're doing." Still, I keep track of projects and their progress, and more often than not, they discover they do need me, they can use my help. That's good, but I also know the very important value of saving face, gloating and "toldyaso's" won't win me any points. If I can, I'll let them think it was their idea all along to use me, and the next time, they call me direct from the git-go.
Now what that all means is that If I were Tony George, seeing how things appear to be from the outside, I would come in with a proposal for them to save face and be able to bow out gracefully and bring the two series together. We could end up where things are eventually heading now instead of two years from now and get a start on where we should have been back in 2003.
out of our hands. i would like to see them both die right now. they are a mutual blight on the great legacy that was indycar.
Miller's wrong and maybe delusional. The failure of CC (or maybe IRL) only leaves permanent anger, bitterness and hatred that will never go away! CC folding or selling out at best gets them 2-6 cars, not the fans in the stands not the tv contracts that Nascar now has. Only a merger of equals has any chance of healing wounds, but things may be too far gone, even for that to do any good.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL
A merger of equals means you have to have two equals to begin with. CCWS is on life support and just needs the plug pulled to put it out of its misery. The IRL is an out-patient compared to what is going on with CCWS. This isn't a partisan statement. I mean seriously, can anyone say that CCWS is in great shape and is a viable, well run series ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesi
This is my point for starting this post. I'm a Champ Car guy and I admit that CC has made some bad mistakes this year and right now is in rougher shape, but then both series are on a roller coaster ride. With the wanton disregard for its loyal fans, maybe both series that comprise the "top level of the sport" should just go away and give in to someone new with fresh ideas (to me that would be Roger Penske). While I do let myself get drawn into this from time to time, I really am no longer interested in CART/Champ Car vs. IRL. I want to end the split. The fans have left for NASCAR, Sportscar racing, and Drag Racing. This is terrible. My feeling is we as an open wheel group whom has had to deal with this for over 10 years, now more than ever need to work together to end it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL
I am sick and tired of it. The only way the sport is going to be successful again instead of just treading water is to get back together and bring back 30 car counts and 50 teams trying to qualify at Indy each May.
Both patients are on an IV in ICU, just one can sit up in bed. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL
CC has a new chassis, and controls their own destiny as far as an engine supply. At this point the Honda & ABC TV deals end at the completion of 2009, which is also the time the aging chassis is scheduled to be replaced. (When the current chassis was new they were paid for with a lot of Honda & Toyota money, now gone.) Without a positive solution in place the only way those chassis are bought is TG writes a very BIG check (~60 cars x ~400k by begining of May '10) Even if he grandfather's the old cars they're going to need 30? new cars for the mid to top teams that's still about $12million. Without things looking up, will Honda & ABC TV stick around unless TG writes more checks to keep them?
CC still has a few worthwhile events that make a profit without big corporate ticket deals too.
If the deal doesn't look equal it's DOA right from the start.
The "split" has been over 10 years now, and many new fans don't know anything about the history or even care. They just see two different open wheel series based in the US and don't know why there are two. Those of us who were around before the "split" keep the arguments alive, but at some point we have to accept there are two very different series. They may have the same parents, and use open wheel cars, but they are going in diverging directions.
CC seems to be moving toward a non-US road racing series that is mainly a support series for F1 and other European open wheel series. Most of the drivers don't seem to view the series as a destination but a way station in an open wheel career aimed at F1. While the racing is great, its claim to any American open wheel heritage is becoming laughable. The teams are US based, but each year more races are outside of the US.
The IRL at least still retains a connection to the past, but has its own issues. While apparently stable, it doesn't seem to be growing and each year most drivers worry if they will have a ride for the next year. Sponsorship is still slim. Without Indy, the IRL wouldn't have much to promote.
Both series are not much more than a blip on the motor sports scene. Is it the result of the split, the emergence of NASCAR, or the changing tastes of the sports fan? Who knows, and it doesn't matter. Each has to find a niche where it can survive and grow if possible. They have to adapt to what sells and forget the turmoil that put us in this place.
IMHO, it isn't the technology, it isn't oval vs road racing, it isn't US vs Foreign drivers. It is sports entertainment and the series that recognizes that they exist to entertain will grow. Entertainment means giving the fan something interesting to look at, interesting stories, interesting people. The fan watches because they find it exciting. Does anyone think the WWF and its offspring thrive because the wrestling is great? Hardly. It is a show, pure and simple and often outlandish. Does NASCAR always have great racing? Nope, but it does know how to put on a "show". Drag racing is so simple, some fans wonder why so many watch. It is an assault on the senses and easy to understand. The racer that gets there first wins - simple.
There is one factor in the success of NASCAR, sports car, rally, and drag racing that is sometimes missed by fans. Just as a kid growing up can play baseball and football, they can drag race their buddies (even if on bicycles) and drive their sedans fast when they get older. Some will drive sports cars on curvy roads, or race around on dirt back roads, playing rally. The average Joe thinks he has a connection to the racing since they have done some of the same activities themselves. They sit in the stands and think "I could do that". They don't know racing is far beyond their capabilities, but they still feel a connection. But open wheel has lost that connection. The average kid may build a soap box derby car, but flying around an oval in an open wheel car, or running on a road course in a formula car are experiences they can't connect to because most have never done anything similar. It is just a show.
It isn't the past that matters, it is the future. The series that puts plans in place to keep the existing fans and draw new ones will succeed. the rest will die off when the money runs out or the teams (or fans) defect to other types of racing.
Chap, you and I have had this talk before, and I think you can guess what I think.
I will just say this, since it is the IRL forum. Until this year, the IRL has NEVER had the upper hand over Champ Car. Maybe they have been about the same, or for the most part, had an inferior series, but this is the first time that the IRL is clearly out in front. I am a Champ Car guy, who also happens to love Indy. This split has driven me nuts over the last 12 years, and I would likely slap Tony George upside the head until he started speaking in tongues if given the chance, but he has the upper hand now. The only merger will be when he vacuums up the dust that is leftover when Champ Car implodes. Unless Champ Car notches up their professionalism a ton, they are dead meat as it stands now. They inherited CART's moral highground (in that they didn't ask for the split, they had it forced upon them) and blew it.
CART had its flaws, and spending too much money without a well thought out plan was one of them, but lets not paint either side in glory in this.
This split has killed the power of American OW racing. It got better ratings than NASCAR on Network TV back in the day, and it was a destination for anex F1 World Champion who wanted to have fun again while being at the top of his game. It had 20 to 22 races a year, big crowds, lots of interest from sponsors and manufacturers and it was only needing some remedial moves in the boardroom to continue. What killed it was the split, and THAT my friends is why I can never really embrace Tony George, or his management of racing. Despite the fact the IRL is doing better, and it more reflective of the original CART in its scope and venue choices, lets never forget it was Tony who claimed to not like foreign drivers, road/street racing and anything that CART did. He thought they were all wrong, and formed the IRL to prove it. Well now the IRL resembles CART and I wonder what the point of all of it was.
IRL fans, you had a great season, you have a series turning the corner, and for the most part, things are ok, but never delude youself that Tony knows what he is doing. His role in killing CART will never endear himself to me, despite his ownership of one of my favourite entities in the sport. Racing would have been better served than the leadership we have had in the last 12 years on both sides of the divide, but now with the IRL having the upper hand, there is NO chance for a merger. None.
The only way this sport gets truly healthy again is when one series dies, and decent management takes over the survivor. I see the former happening, but not the latter, and it makes me very sad.....
Hey, maybe we should think outside the box.
I would suggest USAC take it over but the last time they tried to organize a p--s up in a brewery they found the Co. had gone out of business 10 years ago.
How about the guys who run the WOO in all its different forms. There is more than the sprint cars now. They are successful.
I know a snowball has more chance in the hot spot but why do we always come bak to TG or the Capt.?
Just wild rambllings.
Whats the point in talking about this really. It waste of time!
OW...then just move along, nothing to see. God knows the racing in the IRL is done for the season, and Champ Car is pretty much done. It is a hobby ok? If you dislike a thread, then just move along....some of us like to speculate about the motives of the kingpins of the sport, and where the sport is going. The business of this is probably more intersting at times than the actual racing can be.....
Just a reminder, guys. I'm asking for real suggestions as to what we can do to fix this mess. Both open wheel series continue to take roller coaster rides on the road to success for failure. I'd like to get them both on flat tarmac and headed in the same direction. In this thread, I am looking straight into the future. I don't believe for a minute that there is nothing we can do. the fans have a voice in this deal, we just have to find the right path to use it effectively.
To try to be constructive, Chaparral, I'd say the one thing the fans can do to make one series or the other (or both separately, or try to make them one series) is to make your voice heard to the Powers. Write them once, then again and again (don't harrass them of course, but don't just stop at one letter/email) until they know what it is you want.
From the fan's perspective, the situation is like a faltering TV show. The network has threatened to cancel it, and it's up to the fans to convince the network to keep it on the air. It's fair to remember that letter-writing campaigns have worked in the past (for TV shows....whether it'd work to convince a business owner to keep his business going is a different question).
The other option I see is to kidnap 10 million people in the US and force them to watch the races so ratings will go up.
Yes i want to see one series. Yes i want to see Newmann Haas/Forsythe/Team Australia/Minardi take on AGR/Penske/Ganassi. Yes i want to see ovals again (hey, i only watch one series... guess which one?). But i dont want Tony George in contrl. Even if ChampCar sold itself to TG, i still think that AOWR will be screwed under his control. Champ Car isnt doing a better job at the moment, but I have no faith in Tony George and his Business Practices. Yes i am a Champ Car fan, but no i am not a one eyed, rose-tinted glasses wearing optimist (i leave that to everyone at ccf... ergh!)
The most important part of American Open wheel racing, the part that got me following it wasnt the Indy 500... to be honest, i barely give a crap about the Indy 500... its the other Indy that i care about. Gold Coast Indy. It is the reason i am a fan. I don't want to see my indy being contested by the IRL cars as they are not a road racing machine. Champ Car is the best for Road Racing from the USA. Thats why i support it. But i'm worried that there will be nothing to support soon
The problem with both series is that they are not thinking in the long term. Both are thinking short term gains. But if they dont put their differences aside and join back up, then.... well i think there will be nothing in the future for short term game... i.e no indystyle racing.
KK and TG go 50-50... but have the series run and desicions made by Cotman or someone of the like. Even for the first year... Run dallara Chassis on ovals and Panoz on streets/road (even though they are aparently oval ready)... then both manufacturers can design a new car for the next year (simplistic solution that wont happen and has been mentioned many times before i know)
I've never been overly interested in politics, or the endless battle between champcar vs Irl. I just care mainly about my Indy. For the benefit of my Indy... they have to fix something soon! or else... there may be no racing left as both series would have run themselves into the ground
I'm about done caring about ChampCar. I tended to support it over IRL, and couldn't stand TG. However, IRL is now clearly a better series. More sponsors, a better variety of tracks, and a lot more name drivers, even if they do all want to go to NASCAR. (They are just following the money.)
What needs to happen: CC should sell out to the IRL. They should and would spin it as a merger of equals, for the fans sake, but CC should be dissolved at this point. The new IRL could gain:
A fantastic new car. The Panoz could be used on the road courses immediately, and ultimately would replace the current aging IRL cars on all tracks.
About 10 fully funded teams, with recognizable drivers, to flesh out the series to about competitive 25 teams.
About 8? money-making events, that have good promoters and that actually pay the series to race, rather then allow CC to rent their track. This would of course include Long Beach. Net result, maybe 20+ races, with about a 50/50 oval/non-oval mix.
Options with Kevin K. to supply Cosworth engines, probably branded with whatever manufacturer they could get on board, if Honda didn't re-sign.
The goodwill of a lot of old Champ-Car fans, (if it was all handled right,) along with new young fans and Danica fans and Indy 500 fans and race fans in general, that would hopefully put enough people in seats and in front of the TV to keep the sponsors.
Hopefully a big enough critical mass of drivers, events, and sponsors (and Indy of course) to make it more of a destination, or at least a series where everybody isn't fighting to leave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e2mtt
It is what I have been saying for years....we need a critical mass for the series to start pulling in attention and money, as opposed to paying for attention and not getting sponsors.
You need about 20 dates and 24 cars to really have a series of interest to many, and you need a better TV package. Neither the IRL nor CCWS has all the pieces to make it all work. The IRL in the last 2 years has become a CART "lite" and has come closer to hitting on the formula that made CART grow, but they are missing pieces, and they wont get that without a merger or the collapse of CCWS.