"I feel your pain"

Jock Clear's words to Rubens as he watched his driver tool around in last place, while his team mate (who won this race last year!) sat on the sidelines after his car failed.

This after a qualifying session in which they'd have been better off staying in their hotel rooms.

How much longer can Honda, with all their money and all their pedigree, stay so far off the pace?

It's a criminal waste of two talented drivers. Argue all you like about whether Barrichello or Button has been the faster driver this year, but it's like two bald men fighting over a comb. There can't be much satisfaction in beating your team mate when the net result is you're 17th on the grid :s

Honda are getting their asses kicked by almost everybody, including their bitter rivals Toyota, and more embarrassingly by their old car in the hands of Super Aguri.

What needs to happen next? More money? Well they've got a tidy budget. More engineering talent? I simply do not know.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Jock Clear's words to Rubens as he watched his driver tool around in last place, while his team mate (who won this race last year!) sat on the sidelines after his car failed.

This after a qualifying session in which they'd have been better off staying in their hotel rooms.

How much longer can Honda, with all their money and all their pedigree, stay so far off the pace?

It's a criminal waste of two talented drivers. Argue all you like about whether Barrichello or Button has been the faster driver this year, but it's like two bald men fighting over a comb. There can't be much satisfaction in beating your team mate when the net result is you're 17th on the grid :s

Honda are getting their asses kicked by almost everybody, including their bitter rivals Toyota, and more embarrassingly by their old car in the hands of Super Aguri.

What needs to happen next? More money? Well they've got a tidy budget. More engineering talent? I simply do not know.

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NO they should have borrowed a copy of the ferrari documents from Mcalaren when they had the chance....then they too, might have figured out how to make those Bridgestone tires work better... :imubash:

I think Honda might as well give up this year and focus on producing a decent car for 2008.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Jock Clear's words to Rubens as he watched his driver tool around in last place, while his team mate (who won this race last year!) sat on the sidelines after his car failed.

This after a qualifying session in which they'd have been better off staying in their hotel rooms.

How much longer can Honda, with all their money and all their pedigree, stay so far off the pace?

It's a criminal waste of two talented drivers. Argue all you like about whether Barrichello or Button has been the faster driver this year, but it's like two bald men fighting over a comb. There can't be much satisfaction in beating your team mate when the net result is you're 17th on the grid :s

Honda are getting their asses kicked by almost everybody, including their bitter rivals Toyota, and more embarrassingly by their old car in the hands of Super Aguri.

What needs to happen next? More money? Well they've got a tidy budget. More engineering talent? I simply do not know.

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You start at the top. As team principal, Nick Fry has now presided over 3 designs that were slow out of the box. They managed to fix the 2005 and 2006 cars on the fly, but this year they can't tell which direction is up. And he hired the people who trying to use augers for helicopters.

Boot Fry first, then let a new principal decide the composition of the rest of the team.

ClarkFan

The strange thing is that after yesterday's qualifying Button said something like that: "The car looks good and I can't understand, why we were so slow."

If they even don't know, what's wrong, then the whole situation doesn't look good. The BAR/Honda structure has always had such problems in understanding. Arguably for example in 2004 they didn't know, why the car was so good. So Honda's only hope for 2008 is to take a totally new approach in car design and hope that it "happens" to be a good one. :p :

It's amazing how low they've fallen. Today, for most of the race, RB was lapping slower than Sutil in the Spyker. It's amazing :s

I believe the reason that Super Aguri are faster at the moment is simply down to aerodynamics. The current Honda's aero package probably makes it a dog to drive whilst not making the most efficient use of the engine etc. Whereas the current SA with the same Honda Engine seems to just be working better as an overall package. The team is probably best giving up for 2007 and focusing on 2008.

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Originally Posted by tinchote

It's amazing how low they've fallen. Today, for most of the race, RB was lapping slower than Sutil in the Spyker. It's amazing :s

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no, tin. It's embarrassing. :o :(

When teams that were initially looking to be eating your wake are now putting the screws to you race weekend after race weekend, it's time to consider some really intuitive, if not drastic, changes.

I didn't catch what Rubens said in that exchange, but that's probably best.

Their lowest point of the season, at the track where last year it was the highest.

Simply stunning. They appeared to be making progress in France and Britton were they were only just behind the Renaults on race pace (though still slow in qualy) but this was just dreadful, they should have stayed home. It appears that the concept for this years car is not so much a blind alley as a grave.

I hope they have at least learnt why this years car is so bad. Geoff Willis had no clue as to why his 04 car was so fast so didnt know why the following two were so slow, lets see how the new recruits in the engineering department do on next years car.

I can understand the slow pace in qualifying, but this was unusual for the Honda in the race, as it normally gets slightly better than its qualifying position. It is a real shame, but i kinda agree that it's damage limitation for the rest of the season, try get some more points, then concentrate on the car for 2008.

As Spyker brings out a new car for the Turkish Grand Prix, which should already have some significant Gascoyne influence, then Honda will have to work hard to escape from falling into the status of the worst team. :p :

It's a disgrace really... I would hope after seeing what happened today (Rubens in dead last and telling his team on radio that he was flat out and still couldn't catch Sutil) some heads have to roll.

Barrichello was only lapped twice which is uncharacteristically close for a Hungaroring race and you have to credit the likes of Sato, Vettel and Sutil for beating him in much lesser funded teams.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Jock Clear's words to Rubens as he watched his driver tool around in last place, while his team mate (who won this race last year!) sat on the sidelines after his car failed.

This after a qualifying session in which they'd have been better off staying in their hotel rooms.

How much longer can Honda, with all their money and all their pedigree, stay so far off the pace?

It's a criminal waste of two talented drivers. Argue all you like about whether Barrichello or Button has been the faster driver this year, but it's like two bald men fighting over a comb. There can't be much satisfaction in beating your team mate when the net result is you're 17th on the grid :s

Honda are getting their asses kicked by almost everybody, including their bitter rivals Toyota, and more embarrassingly by their old car in the hands of Super Aguri.

What needs to happen next? More money? Well they've got a tidy budget. More engineering talent? I simply do not know.

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Pretty much a season to forget, same with McLaren last year.

There's team's out there who can't seem to build good cars consistently over a number of years, whether it be Honda or McLaren, to name but few.

These things happen. You take a gamble on a car design and hope its pays off. Again, McLaren being a good example. Year by year you're wondering whether they have the car to fight for titles or (by their standards) utter numpties by mixing it in the midfield.

I don't know if you guys noticed this, but ant was more than 20 seconds ahead of bunsen when the latter stopped.
Team Honda are being spanked by the driver who they fired two years ago and their former test driver driving last year's car raced by a budget team. It doesn't get any worse for Team Honda and it doesn't get any better for the two Super Aguri drivers.

in a way its heartening to see the big manufacturer beaten by the little garagista as we had been led to believe that was very much a thing of the past, its really a fascinating example of what’s needed to succeed in modern f1, money sure , but there’s something about the management structure at Honda that doesn’t work, whereas the simplicity and necessity at SA are just whats needed.
maybe Honda should put Suzuki Aguri in charge of the works team.



yeah markabilly if you say it enough times it might start to become true

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Originally Posted by ClarkFan

You start at the top. As team principal, Nick Fry has now presided over 3 designs that were slow out of the box. They managed to fix the 2005 and 2006 cars on the fly, but this year they can't tell which direction is up. And he hired the people who trying to use augers for helicopters.

Boot Fry first, then let a new principal decide the composition of the rest of the team.

ClarkFan

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I couldn't agree more, Honda fired the man responsible for last years winning car, and replaced him with a motor cycle engineer, however Fry remains in place, in my opinion Honda need the best designer, whom ever that might be, plus a team principle that knows how to bring all the team elements together, perhaps Honda might start by replacing Fry with Brawn.

It's obvious to me. Bring back JV. ;)

It's almost like Jock and Rubens where taking the pi@#....

They both know that it cant get any worse and that it aint going to get better quickly...

I feel sorry for them...

In my view, Honda has never been really competitive since David Richards was let go. This was a huge mistake and now they're paying the bill.

HQ in Japan should eat dirt, call Richards back and let him run the team again, since his own plans of a new F1 team seem to have been stalled anyway.

i feel they probably have given up on this years car development. the only new things will be as test for next year, which i hope they are a long way through the development of already. ultimately they need to work out what works and what doesn't, and more importantly why. i'd hope the recent technical staff signings will help in this, and i'd expect them to be working flat out on next years car rather than persevering with what is patently a dog of a car. they've managed a point, and with a fair wind they may fluke another, that should be enough to keep them off the bottom of the scorers sheets for the year.

meanwhile they can take all Super Aguri's data and use something positive to take into next years car, from a clean slate, cos this one ain't working

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Originally Posted by SteveMcQueen

In my view, Honda has never been really competitive since David Richards was let go. This was a huge mistake and now they're paying the bill.

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I can't forget that Honda was given a two-race ban for using a secondary fuel tank the year after Richards left the team. Richards was lucky to be out of the picture when the results of his stewardship were finally discovered.


Honda are a long ways from being a contender. They haven't got a clue. They don't know why the old car was fast or why the new one is slow. My guess is that it will take at least three years to turn the situation around.

I believe Ruben's words were "I'm driving flat out and I can't catch the !@@$% Spyker!"....

At this stage, it can go one of two ways for Honda.

1) This humiliation will cause major changes to the team and equipment that will make them unbeatable(obviously not overnight!) in the years to come, or
2) Honda will walk away.....

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Originally Posted by luvracin

I believe Ruben's words were "I'm driving flat out and I can't catch the !@@$% Spyker!"....

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That has to seriously frustrating :s

literally carrying the burden of the world with that whacky paint job.

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Originally Posted by VkmSpouge

I think Honda might as well give up this year and focus on producing a decent car for 2008.

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To be honest, they probably already have. It would explain their slide back down the pack after they appeared to be making progress a few races back. Rather than ploughing resources into maybe making the RA107 quick enough to grab a couple more points by the end of the year, it's probably a far better move to start from a clean sheet of paper (or the RA106) and work towards building a proper car that can regularly challenge for points next year.

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Originally Posted by V12

To be honest, they probably already have. It would explain their slide back down the pack after they appeared to be making progress a few races back. Rather than ploughing resources into maybe making the RA107 quick enough to grab a couple more points by the end of the year, it's probably a far better move to start from a clean sheet of paper (or the RA106) and work towards building a proper car that can regularly challenge for points next year.

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Assuming they don't care about sponsors :D

I found it a little strange that Rubens keep on driving. If I was two laps down, driving as hard as I could but without any hope of catching even my slowest rival, then I would have found it very difficult to keep pushing and not pulled into the pits and parked up.

I really don't see what Honda or Rubens gained from their performance on Sunday, it's not like they were testing new parts or trying out different set ups.

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Originally Posted by Storm

It's a disgrace really... I would hope after seeing what happened today (Rubens in dead last and telling his team on radio that he was flat out and still couldn't catch Sutil) some heads have to roll.

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Maybe Gil DeFerran's frustration was warranted. I would have expected a much better situation from Honda.

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Originally Posted by CarlMetro

I found it a little strange that Rubens keep on driving. If I was two laps down, driving as hard as I could but without any hope of catching even my slowest rival, then I would have found it very difficult to keep pushing and not pulled into the pits and parked up.

I really don't see what Honda or Rubens gained from their performance on Sunday, it's not like they were testing new parts or trying out different set ups.

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Any data is useful, and I think that RB was on his second engine anyway. But yes, I agree it must have been painful. Rubens is a pro, though, and would probably have kept driving even 20 laps down.

Before this season there were both positive (especially before winter tests) and also sceptical opinions about Honda, but I think the car has turned out to be worse than anyone could have believed/imagined.

If in the last two seasons BAR/Honda managed to get out of the hole during the season, then this season they have shown hardly any signs of improving and I can't see much hope for the future. I'd say that even in 1999 BAR was more impressive - although they scored no points due to unreliablity (current Honda would be the same with '99 system), BAR was pretty quick and JV qualified often into Top10 and fought for points in races (and once even for podium as I recall). And it was clear that if BAR managed to find some reliablity, they would be a strong midfielder. But their predecessor Honda is simply hopeless at the present moment and seem not to understand their problems. I see that some have put a lot of hopes on 2008, but I simply can't see, where or how can they pull a rabbit out of the hat, especially as long as Honda won't make significant changes and Fry & Nakamoto keep their jobs.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Any data is useful, and I think that RB was on his second engine anyway. But yes, I agree it must have been painful. Rubens is a pro, though, and would probably have kept driving even 20 laps down.

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True, but then it is surprising they are not more organized as to test during the races. It would have been reasonable for RB to stop maybe to try a different setup, or something. I don't think they should quit the race, but staying dead last in the middle of a failure year and not try to do anything about it, feels really bad.

I've said t before and I will say it again: Honda and Toy interfere too much from Japan and also keep changing their own engineers so that they really do not learn the ropes of F1.

Here's a thought : is it possible for Team Honda to race the RA106 instead of the RA107 for the remainder of the year?

Feel for Rubens but its the best team for Jenson Button though. I never liked him after what he did to Frank Williams, that was when he lost all his integrity and honour as an individual. Seeing him waste his career in this waste of a team is just so pleasing. At least when he retires he can say "I've won in Formula 1" not mentioning the fact that it was a freak race with many retirements, etc...another Brazil 2003. =)

I think it might be time for Honda to give up their dreams of being a complete constructor and go back to being solely an engine supplier. Their best years where when they supplied engines to McLaren and Williams. Maybe they simply aren't cut out to be a full F1 constructor?

The other thing that's interesting is, what are Super Aguri going to do for a car next season? Are they in a position to design and build their own car? The prospect of using RA107s next year can't be an enticing one. Even if they get the RA108, how good is that going to be? I doubt they can stick with the then 2 year old RA106. If they do that, they'll be looking at Spykers disappearing in the distance.

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Originally Posted by jens

I'd say that even in 1999 BAR was more impressive

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And it had a better paint job, zippers and all!