Back to the drawing board.

Well, I said the IRL had become CART. And at Richmond, the race was similar to some of the 1-mile oval bores CART had with the high down-force set-ups. CART eventually changed the aero set up, and the IRL better do something for Richmond. The IRL had some good races in the past at Richmond, but the current aero package needs serious tweaking.

The worst part of the race was when everyone was backed up behind Dunno and Simmons, and could not make it past. Not only was there no passing at the front, there was almost no passing at the rear, save for Dario lapping people, and Hornish trying to make ground up after his bad start. The decent crowd, who started tail-gating quite early in the day, deserved a much better show.

Dario had another great race, as "Squirrel" and the team continue to give him great cars.

And Milka...needs to be parked for good. There were at least three-four near big'ns on the front stretch, when she seemed to be getting off the gas coming off four, when everyone else was on the gas! She has never done anything well in open wheel cars, and certainly does not belong. Some one is going to get hurt. Let’s give Steve Challis someone good to work with (Alex Barron?). The team is capable of doing better.

Some old news is that Hornish will be in 'cup next year, with Weldon almost demanding to be there as well and Dario to retire, or race in sports cars. Look for Briscoe to take over for Hornish, and there are several drivers being discussed for Ganassi. AGR would not replace Dario, but expand their ALMS effort.

The word in the paddock remains that Haas will be in the series next year with Rahal and Wilson. The two questions are Wilson (re-united with his Rusport engineer?) and weather Paul Newman will accept this, start another CCWS team, or match the dollar amount Carl is being offered.

I think that the 1-mile ovals are not suitable for OW cars. They are maybe exciting to watch live on the track because everything is front of your eyes, but on TV i thing is boring. There are no high speeds (very high) and excitement is not so big.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fan-veteran

I think that the 1-mile ovals are not suitable for OW cars. They are maybe exciting to watch live on the track because everything is front of your eyes, but on TV i thing is boring. There are no high speeds (very high) and excitement is not so big.

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You probably never saw some of the great CART races at Phoenix and Milwaukee in the early 90's. They were awesome! And, both CCWS and the IRL have had some good races at Milwaukee.

BTW, Richmond is less than a 1-mile (7/8ths) and as they had good racing in the past, the just need to tweak the specs for that kind fo track. Speedway wings anyone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starter

Wouldn't you say it's more the character of the track than the length? Open wheel cars show much better on tracks with less banking, which would be why Milwaukee is usually a good race. And I would agree that ovals where no braking is required is boring. It's an endurance contest and the luck of your pit stops vs yellows.

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I agree that it is the character of each track, but length, banking, width, etc. all come into play. But Texas and some of the 1.5 miles tracks have steep banking, and put on great shows. Richmond has some pretty good banking, and use to put on some good shows, but the aero package needs to be tweaked in order to allow the cars to mix it up, or at least get by lapped traffic.

I also agree that a big lift and/or braking does allow some passing opportunities on ovals. It also separates the men, from the boys (women from the girls?).

With the high down force set up CART ran for a bit, even flat tracks like Milwaukee were parades. Each track presents its own unique challenges, and one can only hope the IRL takes a look at this years Richmond race, and changes the package for next year.

I've seen some really good races from the IRL at Richmond in the past, but definetly this years was bad. Obviously the setup they are using at Richmond and Iowa needs to be changed, in years past RIR was second only to Indy and Texas for putting on a great show.

Interesting scuttlebutt, EagleEye. I agree with you that Hornish is in Cup next year, probably in Ryan Newmans car, unless Penske decides to expand and keep Newman or hire Kyle Busch as well. His loss will be the biggest hit the IRL has ever taken.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleEye

Well, I said the IRL had become CART. And at Richmond, the race was similar to some of the 1-mile oval bores CART had with the high down-force set-ups. CART eventually changed the aero set up, and the IRL better do something for Richmond. The IRL had some good races in the past at Richmond, but the current aero package needs serious tweaking.

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I don't know if it is the aero as much as it is the tires. The marbles were so bad that as the race went on the 2nd groove went away. Look at the start of the race when Wreckter made a bunch of outside passes, but then as the race went on the outside line went away. Look at Iowa, on Friday there was plenty of group racing & passing, but then on Sun the marbles became a problem and so did the passing. If it were an areo issue then Marco would not have been stuck on Dario's tail for the whole race. This is the same aero package that they have ran for the last 4 plus years.

As for Milka, I will say that a lot of it is her, but a lot of it is he car as well. I was watching her from turn 4 at Iowa and her car was pushing to beat hell. If you put he on a team with some indy car experience, she might not be a second off the pace.

"Wreckter"? LOL!

About the aero-issue:
Didn't they introduce a new rear-wing this year?

About Milka:
It's probably not the best idea to put a driver with zero openwheel experience and zero oval track time in an ICS-car operated by a sportscar team, not to forget she has no team mate.

About the race:
It was boring alright. What to do? There's always going to be boring races. Didn't Dixon lead the entire race once at Richmond? However if there really was only one availbable racing line for most of the race something MUST be done.

The same problem with grip was obvious in Indy500, to mention a few crashes when the drivers left the ideal path and were forced to the walls. I think they said that namely rubber rubbish on the track was the reason. And Milka drove not so bad on Indy i think, even managed to crash :) .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleEye

great cars.

The word in the paddock remains that Haas will be in the series next year with Rahal and Wilson. The two questions are Wilson (re-united with his Rusport engineer?) and weather Paul Newman will accept this, start another CCWS team, or match the dollar amount Carl is being offered.

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will never happen....Rahal and Wilson have no desire to run in the IRL and both have said so....Rahal maybe just maybe run Indy unless Champcar runs several races in May (which reportly will happen). Haas is also the parts distributor for Panoz plus he will also need to buy out Lanigan not only Newman. Haas will also need to start from scratch as the majority of the team will not go with him to the IRL. NHL Racing also have started their search for a driver to replace Sebass who is going F1 and that search revolves around the Champcar series not the IRL. Won't happen unless Honda gives Haas tens of millions of dollars and Haas will have to turn his back on not only Newman but team members that he has been involved with since they started the team together. Haas also enjoys the international travel too much that the Champcar series affords him and he is very excited about not only the two European rounds this year but also the prospect of a second two race leg next year. Amazing how "the word" in the IRL paddock these days about Champcar ends up being 100% false.

More of a worry is that if the IRL doesn't come up with a second engine manufacture that Honda will leave per their contract agreement and the potential exodus of drivers wanting to leave the series for anywhere else because of the preferred treatment Danica and Marco get versus the rest of the drivers. Potentially the IRL could lose their three top drivers next year. Hornish to NASCAR, Dario to ALMS and Weldon going to NASCAR to a team other than Ganassi because of Ganassi's comments that he won't give Hornish a NASCAR ride next year.

One more thing is that Paul Newman and Carl Haas have been in talks with Mario Andretti who does want Marco in Champcar as it's his best chance to get to F1. Paul Newman has even made a comment that they may just have to run a third car for Marco. Does that sound like Haas packing up and going to the IRL? The chances of Marco to Champcar in 2008 is 50/50 as he is still under contract to his father but in 2009 the chances are more 90/10 unless Marco decides that he doesn't want to go to F1. Of course TG will throw millions of dollars Marco's way to prevent this from happening but in the end it will be Marco's desire to race in F1 or take TG's money and race in a 100% throttle only series with a few road races thrown in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FerrrariF1

will never happen....Rahal and Wilson have no desire to run in the IRL and both have said so....Rahal maybe just maybe run Indy unless Champcar runs several races in May (which reportly will happen).

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You know, I heard the same story about Helio & Gil when Penske made the move, and look how that turned out.

It is kinda of like how all of these Indy car drivers want to come back to CC, and yet none of them do. (Remember how last fall it was a sure thing for Dario to go to RuSport)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Komahawk

"Wreckter"? LOL!

About the aero-issue:
Didn't they introduce a new rear-wing this year?

About Milka:
It's probably not the best idea to put a driver with zero openwheel experience and zero oval track time in an ICS-car operated by a sportscar team, not to forget she has no team mate.

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I know the gave a new Aero package to the IPS cars, not sure about the Indy Cars

and as far a why isn't milka running the road courses, the main reason is how much more the cost then running the ovals. TSO was talking to Greg Beck about it a Texas, and he said that there is more car wear, they run steel brakes which must be replaced, and the gearbox gets a lot more wear. Crash damage could be lower on a road course, but it could also be pretty expensive. You can get four corners and a bellhousing there as easy as at an oval.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gofastandwynn

I don't know if it is the aero as much as it is the tires. The marbles were so bad that as the race went on the 2nd groove went away. Look at the start of the race when Wreckter made a bunch of outside passes, but then as the race went on the outside line went away. Look at Iowa, on Friday there was plenty of group racing & passing, but then on Sun the marbles became a problem and so did the passing. If it were an areo issue then Marco would not have been stuck on Dario's tail for the whole race. This is the same aero package that they have ran for the last 4 plus years.

As for Milka, I will say that a lot of it is her, but a lot of it is he car as well. I was watching her from turn 4 at Iowa and her car was pushing to beat hell. If you put he on a team with some indy car experience, she might not be a second off the pace.

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The sweeper came out for the first yellow, but marbles will always be an issue until they move to a harder tire.

I can tell you for sure that Milka's the bad seed, not the car. Steve Challis knows a thing or two about setting a car up, after spending years as Greg Moore's engineer, Team Green, Patrick, etc. She never did anything in the Barber series (she was just as bad) and really does not have any talent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleEye

And Milka...needs to be parked for good. There were at least three-four near big'ns on the front stretch, when she seemed to be getting off the gas coming off four, when everyone else was on the gas!

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Well, of course. There are always at least two big-uns every time she comes down the front stretch...(wait for it)... they're attached to her chest!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleEye

Well, I said the IRL had become CART. And at Richmond, the race was similar to some of the 1-mile oval bores CART had with the high down-force set-ups. CART eventually changed the aero set up, and the IRL better do something for Richmond. The IRL had some good races in the past at Richmond, but the current aero package needs serious tweaking.

The worst part of the race was when everyone was backed up behind Dunno and Simmons, and could not make it past. Not only was there no passing at the front, there was almost no passing at the rear, save for Dario lapping people, and Hornish trying to make ground up after his bad start. The decent crowd, who started tail-gating quite early in the day, deserved a much better show.

Dario had another great race, as "Squirrel" and the team continue to give him great cars.

And Milka...needs to be parked for good. There were at least three-four near big'ns on the front stretch, when she seemed to be getting off the gas coming off four, when everyone else was on the gas! She has never done anything well in open wheel cars, and certainly does not belong. Some one is going to get hurt. Let’s give Steve Challis someone good to work with (Alex Barron?). The team is capable of doing better.

Some old news is that Hornish will be in 'cup next year, with Weldon almost demanding to be there as well and Dario to retire, or race in sports cars. Look for Briscoe to take over for Hornish, and there are several drivers being discussed for Ganassi. AGR would not replace Dario, but expand their ALMS effort.

The word in the paddock remains that Haas will be in the series next year with Rahal and Wilson. The two questions are Wilson (re-united with his Rusport engineer?) and weather Paul Newman will accept this, start another CCWS team, or match the dollar amount Carl is being offered.

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Newman? You forgot Lanigan. Carl wants to do a one off at Indy in 2008 with Graham and Marco. Thats the only way Marco gets the seat. Wilson ain't going anywhere, believe me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by weeflyonthewall

Newman? You forgot Lanigan. Carl wants to do a one off at Indy in 2008 with Graham and Marco. Thats the only way Marco gets the seat. Wilson ain't going anywhere, believe me.

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Marco is not leaving AGR, and neither is TK or DP. Period. Wilson (or Da Matta) will be Graham's team-mate at Haas next year, and they will be running the entire IRL season. The question is will it be NHL, NH, HL, or just H. Carl is done with CCWS....Haas has sponsorship for two cars in the IRL next year. There are some serious discussion going on at the momment.

At the momment, the options are:
1-Newman joins Hass in the IRL.
2-Newman will run a one-two car team in CCWS (if such series exists next year) with McD's.
3-Newman matches the sponsor money, and NHL stays in CCWS.

Wilson is not staying with Rsport, and wants to be re-united with his engineer from Rusport (and a few races with Conquest) Todd Malloy. There is a slight chance he'll end up at Forsythe, but at the momment, he really wants to be where Malloy is. Just ask him.

IF CCWS answers the bell for 2008, Wilson could be part of the Newman team, but that would depend on where Malloy goes.

That, according to Dr. JP himself. I doubt you talked to him or Carl durring the F1 weekend....

And, before you start on "Carl sells Panoz parts to the CCWS teams.." that would continue. Just as CCWS sells Pi systems and support to the IRL teams.

You are a great guy, and have been a good supporter of CCWS, but your opinions are not correct or your talking to the wrong people. Just wait until the news hits between the second to last race, and the last race of the season.

Eagle Eye, how do we know that YOU aren't full of it? NH is going to the IRL?Ummm if they were gonna go, they would have went at the end of last year I would think. Why buy the new DP01 to dump it a year later? Just a question...you know thinking a little and using some logic?


I think Richmond likely was dull because of the aero setup. For some to say it was like a Champ Car race is a bit much. Some of the greatest races on short ovals were CART races back in the 90's. What makes for a good oval race is mulitple ways to get past. Iowa and Richmond both were not good because they became one groove tracks because the guys were flat out, no one could pass and the tires mucked up the track off line....

Take the damn wings off, and then watch the fun...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Eagle Eye, how do we know that YOU aren't full of it? NH is going to the IRL?Ummm if they were gonna go, they would have went at the end of last year I would think. Why buy the new DP01 to dump it a year later? Just a question...you know thinking a little and using some logic?


I think Richmond likely was dull because of the aero setup. For some to say it was like a Champ Car race is a bit much. Some of the greatest races on short ovals were CART races back in the 90's. What makes for a good oval race is mulitple ways to get past. Iowa and Richmond both were not good because they became one groove tracks because the guys were flat out, no one could pass and the tires mucked up the track off line....

Take the damn wings off, and then watch the fun...

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Just as I said that the Antonio Ferrari deal was not going to happen, and the Gelles deal was not going to happen, I actually talk to the players.

Carl Haas has a sponsor for two cars for the the IRL next season. He is tired of the fighting withing CCWS, lack of promotion, low TV ratings, and he's getting on in age and wants to win a 500. There is also several question marks in regards to CCWS for next seasaon and beyond. Newman wants no part of the IRL, and there is some discussions going on there. At the momment, they do not have the funding to continue in CCWS (save for Carl's $$) while they have a free ride in the IRL with a major spronsor. I talked to the rep for the company, who confided its a "done deal" for the year. Not just the 500. Big company, familiar name.

Thus, it will come down to PN, and if he puts more money in the team to keep it in CCWS, or what is left of it. If there are some major changes withing CCWS, and PL puts additional funding into the team, they could remain, again, if the series can make it. KK has indicated he does not want to pay $10 million/year for TV, but that is another thread, for another day.

The bold above (Marco not leaving AGR, and Wilson leaving Rsport) are, 100%take it to the bank, sure things.

Carl was at the 500 and F1 race. He has partnered with the speedway and Kyle Krisoloff's (Kyle is part of the George/Hulman clan) deal. There is a lot going on at the momment. Not that the IRL does not have some issues, but their marketing department gets a huge thumbs up. They are getting their message out. CCWS, is not.

The best thing to do? Get those TV ratings up!

100% agree on the aero package for Richmond. It needs to be changed. Champcar had some fantastic races on ovals of all sizes in the late 80's, early 90's. They tweated the package a bit in the late 90's to make it more interesting, with some level of success.

How many years now have we heard that Hass was going to the Irl?,
usually from people who have no clue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleEye

Just as I said that the Antonio Ferrari deal was not going to happen, and the Gelles deal was not going to happen, I actually talk to the players.

Carl Haas has a sponsor for two cars for the the IRL next season. He is tired of the fighting withing CCWS, lack of promotion, low TV ratings, and he's getting on in age and wants to win a 500. There is also several question marks in regards to CCWS for next seasaon and beyond. Newman wants no part of the IRL, and there is some discussions going on there. At the momment, they do not have the funding to continue in CCWS (save for Carl's $$) while they have a free ride in the IRL with a major spronsor. I talked to the rep for the company, who confided its a "done deal" for the year. Not just the 500. Big company, familiar name.

Thus, it will come down to PN, and if he puts more money in the team to keep it in CCWS, or what is left of it. If there are some major changes withing CCWS, and PL puts additional funding into the team, they could remain, again, if the series can make it. KK has indicated he does not want to pay $10 million/year for TV, but that is another thread, for another day.

The bold above (Marco not leaving AGR, and Wilson leaving Rsport) are, 100%take it to the bank, sure things.

Carl was at the 500 and F1 race. He has partnered with the speedway and Kyle Krisoloff's (Kyle is part of the George/Hulman clan) deal. There is a lot going on at the momment. Not that the IRL does not have some issues, but their marketing department gets a huge thumbs up. They are getting their message out. CCWS, is not.

The best thing to do? Get those TV ratings up!

100% agree on the aero package for Richmond. It needs to be changed. Champcar had some fantastic races on ovals of all sizes in the late 80's, early 90's. They tweated the package a bit in the late 90's to make it more interesting, with some level of success.

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That's all very interesting. It's gonna be an exciting silly season, I guess.

Say, wouldn't it be possible for the forum officials to create a board or at least a permanent thread for general technical background info on racing? We seem to have many pros on here and I'm sure they can tell a few things about tires, aero, suspensions and whatnot. That'd really be great, especially for someone like me who has to get all his motorsport-"knowledge" from TV and video games. And that would also be a nice contrast to all the more or less friendly political threads/posts.

About Milka:
Greg Moore's engineer? Ok then, must be more of a Milka-issue then. But there'll always be ride-buyers. And why not? They're just chasing their dream. And as long as they don't mess up other driver's weekends, it's alright with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleEye

Marco is not leaving AGR, and neither is TK or DP. Period. Wilson (or Da Matta) will be Graham's team-mate at Haas next year, and they will be running the entire IRL season. The question is will it be NHL, NH, HL, or just H. Carl is done with CCWS....Haas has sponsorship for two cars in the IRL next year. There are some serious discussion going on at the momment.

At the momment, the options are:
1-Newman joins Hass in the IRL.
2-Newman will run a one-two car team in CCWS (if such series exists next year) with McD's.
3-Newman matches the sponsor money, and NHL stays in CCWS.

Wilson is not staying with Rsport, and wants to be re-united with his engineer from Rusport (and a few races with Conquest) Todd Malloy. There is a slight chance he'll end up at Forsythe, but at the momment, he really wants to be where Malloy is. Just ask him.

IF CCWS answers the bell for 2008, Wilson could be part of the Newman team, but that would depend on where Malloy goes.

That, according to Dr. JP himself. I doubt you talked to him or Carl durring the F1 weekend....

And, before you start on "Carl sells Panoz parts to the CCWS teams.." that would continue. Just as CCWS sells Pi systems and support to the IRL teams.

You are a great guy, and have been a good supporter of CCWS, but your opinions are not correct or your talking to the wrong people. Just wait until the news hits between the second to last race, and the last race of the season.

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How much would you like to wager that Haas or any part of the Haas organization will leave Champcar to run the entire IRL schedule next year?

Also how much would you like to wager that Champcar will run a complete schedule next year?

It's funny how the IRL fans only hope for success is that Champcar shuts down (will never happen unless TG sells out) and that Tony Stewart leaves NASCAR to go to the IRL. Funny how the IRL can not develop their own drivers. They have this IPS series yet none of their drivers move up.

It's always Champcar's fault that the IRL isn't moving forward. Maybe you need to look into your own backyard for the real reason versus hoping about other things happen. It will never happen.

Your three options for Haas were though very funny. Funny how Haas and Lanigan are teamed up with Hulman in the Busch series with Clabber Girl sponsorship. Why didn't she go to TG to setup a team? Why doesn't she allow Clabber Girl to sponsor any one of his IRL cars? Why does she never come out in support for her grandson? Makes you wonder.....maybe she'll sell the speedway to Haas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FerrrariF1

It's always Champcar's fault that the IRL isn't moving forward. Maybe you need to look into your own backyard for the real reason versus hoping about other things happen. It will never happen.

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Funny how it is always te IRL's fault that CC isn't moving forward...

Eagle Eye, I appreciate your reasoning, and it sounds reasonable, but you of course have not explained why they bought Panoz chassis for this year. If they wanted out, last year your arguments would make total sense. What is more, it would have scared KK into doing more than just going to visit the penguins this last year.

AS for The AGM and Marco splitting rumours, I don't put much stock in those,and as for any other silly season driver moves, well, they are interesting but not that big a deal to me. Drivers move all the time. The teams moving and folding, well THAT is another thing...and I am very suspect of anyone under an assumed alias (that is what we all have here) coming on here and saying "I talked to so and so" so forgive my skepticism. Time will prove you right or wrong.....