Good old Bernie....

Am I the only one that has seen the latest on the Singapore 2008 Crashgate scandal? I actually thought it might have been a late April Fools joke at first, but it appears not. Felipe Massa may take legal action concerning the 2008 title due to statements made by Bernie Ecclestone that they were aware of the race fixing in adequate time, and that the race results should have been excluded from the season. And several sources are quoting his statements making it seem pretty black and white that they knew but just let it slide.

It will be interesting to see what if anything comes from all of this. I would imagine if Felipe gets involved Ferrari might get behind him. Most sources say Felipe doesn't want to go after any money.... but would Ferrari feel the same? No doubt the FIA would fight it all tooth and nail, but it might be a tough case if Bernies statements are proven.

Crashgate V2.0, coming in 2023?



The strange world that is F1 as we know it.

It's interesting enough, but even if Massa / Ferrari take it on, the ultimate court who would decide the outcome is still the FIA themselves. There's no right of appeal to CAS, and if the Italian courts took a position on it, the Italian Grand Prix would probably find itself without a slot in the calendar.

Ultimately, I'd put money on Bernie refusing to actually take the stand and tell a court that he knew all along and kept it buried. What we've heard recently is just a bit of attention-seeking from a man who can't bear not to be at the centre of the sport he made any more.

Although, having said that, maybe this is why Lewis didn't want to upset the apple cart in the wake of Abu Dhabi 2021...

If these latest developments are all true then they probably couldn't have acted because there was no proof early enough. Massa hasn't a hope of overturning a 15 year old championship decision. I agree he should be 2008 world champion though. Mind you if Ferrari hadn't left the fuel rig on his car after his first pit stop he could have still been champion.

Agreed that the pit stop screwed him regardless, but the below is what seemed to be quoted by almost every source.

“Back then, there was a rule that a world championship classification after the FIA ​​awards ceremony at the end of the year was untouchable. So Hamilton was presented with the trophy and everything was fine," Ecclestone said in an interview with German site F1-Insider.“We had enough information in time to investigate the matter. According to the statutes, we should have cancelled the race in Singapore under these conditions," he said. "That means it would never have happened for the championship standings. And then Felipe Massa would have become world champion and not Lewis Hamilton.”

You could do it like they did in Biathlon two years ago and share the title between the two.
Russia's Olga Zaitsev was stripped of her 2014 results due to Sotchi doping issues.
This mean that the points score had to be recalculated and the resulting points score changed the no 1.
But since it wasn't the fault of the original no1. They did'nt strip her of the title.

Sent from my Takapalk.

Janneppi,

Good point, and I agree. But to some extent this is what confuses me on Felipe's stance. Let's say Bernie states that the quoted bit is 100% true, Felipe is crowned champion after the fact, and they either do or don't allow Lewis to retain the joint title as well.

If Felipe doesn't go after money from Bernie, what has he really gained? Granted having the title would mean a lot to a person, but it wouldn't compensate for any changes to income through contracts, endorsements, bonuses, etc. And if they suddenly changed it, does anyone really think any more or less of Felipe? Or Lewis?

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Granted having the title would mean a lot to a person,

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I think this is enough motivation.

On the other hand the situation is so complicated, the only just action would be to disqualify both Massa and Hamilton from the championship and give the wdc to the 3rd place competitor. :)

Sent from my Takapalk.

I guess only time will tell. It just seems that after 15 years it's not doing down well for Felipe. And I can't say that I blame him if Bernie's comments are true.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

I think his qualms is with the dodgy FIA and F1M. History repeated itself at Abu Dhabi did it not? So much time has passed, such that it would be ridiculous at best to alter such a long-standing race result. However, Bernie's comments have opened up an ugly can of worms. The old fart should be relegated away from cameras, microphones etc

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I think it is vastly different to Abu Dhabi. What took place at AD '21 was seen by the world. The decisions were then based on the semantics of the regs, appeals, etc. IF there is any truth to the statements Bernie has made, whoever knew about it kept it in the dark, didn't follow the policy in place, and potentially altered a WDC, as well as both WDC and WCC points standings.

While it has been a long time, if Bernie kept his mouth shut all the time nobody would have known. And if he did open his mouth he probably should have just taken it to the grave. But to silence the only person who might know the truth isn't doing anyone any justice either. Even if they don't change any results officially, if by the regs Felipe should have been WDC then they should at least acknowledge that and the mistakes involved. If nothing else it might help them take a hard look at the regs, how investigations work, the process, etc.

The reason I say the outcome was altered was due to the quote attributed to Bernie, in which he claims to have not played by the rules.

“We had enough information in time to investigate the matter. According to the statutes, we should have cancelled the race in Singapore under these conditions," he said. "That means it would never have happened for the championship standings. And then Felipe Massa would have become world champion and not Lewis Hamilton.”

I agree that nobody knows what might have happened had the spin not been directed, but if there was a statute that stated it should have been cancelled for the purpose of points, it surely wasn't followed.

As for the leading teams changing, people can speculate all they want and have done it for years. But for the most part modern F1 has seen periods of team domination frequently, often with only regs changes upsetting the balance. But people attach whatever they can in speculation and try to find a way to say it's all fixed. I personally don't fall for it myself. Though I'm far from having 100% faith in FOM or the FIA, I think often the fans engineer more problems with the speculation.

Well now.... I wonder if this will get messy.

https://www.reuters.com/sports/motor...le-2023-08-17/

Felipe Baby :dork:

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

I don't think anybody would have to prove anything other than the fact that the race results should not have been included in the season results.

By including the race they allowed several drivers to pay a penalty of positions lost in the race, as well as changing the finishing order of constructors at the end of the season.

We know the race was fixed, and if these lawsuits continue we might find out how early people in the governing bodies knew it was fixed. Bernie could well take it to the grave, but depending on where the information flowed from it might still be very condemning of the governing bodies. And if the right information is found money will no doubt change hands.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Sorry, that is ridiculous. A race took place in spite of the crash. And cars that finished that race deserved to be rewarded for how they finished that race. It is the same as saying the race results for the 2021 Abu Dhabi race should not have been included in the 2021 championship.

It is also quite an exaggeration to say that race was fixed at lap 14 of a 60-lap race. If they want to fix the race they would do a Masi at the end of the race. You only know things from hearsay and speculations of what Ecclestone is claimed to have said. At worst mistakes were probably made. The idea that Ecclestone and Mosley fixed a championship outcome is quite ridiculous to say the least. They had their flaws but this sort of thing is not one of them.

The problem with this sort of accusation is that they tanish the names of good people.

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Everything that happened after that intentional crash was affected by it , and different from the situation that would have ensued had the crash not occurred .

If it is proven that the Max and Bernie show knew about the facts before the end of the season , and that the "intentional" aspect of it was clear , then the race should certainly be thrown out .

Sure , it might look ugly , but that episode was an ugly one , and wiping up and making things right in the end , rather than "tarnish the names of good people" , actually does the opposite .

Had Jr. not come out with the truth eventually , it might have all gone away . Had Ecclestone not made his memory fade interview , giving in that they knew before the awards were given out , Massa wouldn't have a leg to stand on in all of this .

What Air told you was not ridiculous at all .

And it has no similarity at all with what happened in Abu Dhabi .
None .

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

However, Bernie's comments have opened up an ugly can of worms. The old fart should be relegated away from cameras, microphones etc

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

The problem with this sort of accusation is that they tanish the names of good people.

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It's not really a surprise that you think such accusations can tarnish the names of people is it?



If they had the info, it might come to light that they just looked the other way and let it happen, knowing the ruleset required otherwise. I would imagine that if the info was out there, more than a few people would have been in the chain of information.

I'm going to dig some, as I recall Bernie doing an interview where he said race fixing was worse than cheating in his mind. It would seem to me he changed his opinion on that fairly quickly when it came to light that the race was fixed. All in all, Renault got off fairly easy when said and done. The disqualification was suspended for two years, Flavio and Symonds ended back up in motorsport after appealing to higher courts, and Renault ended up paying out some cash on a libel suit from the Piquet's.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I'm going to dig some, as I recall Bernie doing an interview where he said race fixing was worse than cheating in his mind. It would seem to me he changed his opinion on that fairly quickly when it came to light that the race was fixed.

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Bernie strikes me as the sort of bloke who says anything he thinks his listener(s) want to hear. That's why he can never remember what he said and why I never believe a word he says.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Don't get me wrong, l do sympathize with Massa for the cruel turn of events that saw him lose the 2008 championship by one point. That was same sort of turn of events that saw Hamilton lose the 2007 driver's title by one point to Kimi. It is just the way it is. But suing the FIA and F1M is not cool. He is looking like a sore loser. I get that 2008 was his only real chance of winning a driver's title. And he came so close.

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I look at differently- the FIA have a sporting responsibility to ensure fairness. It has failed repeatedly throughout the years on this and in many cases covered up cheating and sabotaged drivers. I’m tired of this I’m F1. It’s about time someone did something about it.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I look at differently- the FIA have a sporting responsibility to ensure fairness. It has failed repeatedly throughout the years on this and in many cases covered up cheating and sabotaged drivers. I’m tired of this I’m F1. It’s about time someone did something about it.

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And really when you go back to Crashgate, the winners were Renault as well as Symonds and Briatore. Though the FIA dragged their feet and imposed what seemed like harsh penalties, the penalties had no real long term impact.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

More info is coming out on why Massa thinks he has a case. Apparently, after the race trophy presentation at the 2008 Brazilian GP, Nelson Piquet Sr approached Charlie Whiting to inform him of the conspiracy that occurred at the Singapore GP earlier that year. Apparently, the basis of Massa's case was that the FIA and FOM should have responded within 4 days of receiving that information by stating their course of action on the matter, they claim this is according to the F1 statutes and regulations. The basis of the case seems to be that they did not act because they conspired to act against Massa's interest; allegedly.

Now, this information alone spins up a number of theories in my head.

1. Why did Nelson Piquet not contact the FIA earlier upon knowing about the conspiracy from his son but waited several months to do so? More importantly, why did he not contact the FIA at the start of the race but at the end when the championship outcome had been decided? Mind you, decided against his fellow countryman by the slightest of margins.

2. Could it be that Charlie Whiting smelled a rat and thought there was a scheme to overturn the championship outcome?

3. Is the FIA's lack of response an actual response to say we know what you are trying to do buddy and we are not buying it?


Unfortunately, Charlie Whiting is not with us to give us a clear idea of what was and was not said. We can imagine that Mr. Whiting [RIP] would have been faced with two separate issues to analyze, namely:-

(a) Was he confronted with a fraudulent attempt to alter the outcome of the championship?

(b) How to proceed with the information about the conspiracy of Singapore.

If he had concluded that the timing of the notification was suspicious and he thought fraud was afoot, the official course of action may well have led to a former F1 champion being found guilty of attempting to commit fraud. In this case, his lack of action may have been to avoid that outcome. You have to bear in mind that the informer's son had been an active party in bringing the conspiracy about. The credibility of the informant would have seemed quite dodgy to say the least.


Timing appears to be a very crucial factor in all actions leading to this case. Because the timing of Massa's choice to challenge took several years to materialize. They seem to conveniently attribute the basis now acting to be on information originating from Bernie Ecclestone who happens to not recollect ever saying anything of the nature.

Of course, the natural reaction to this is to think Ecclestone is senile and has lost his sharp wit and sense of diplomacy. What is questionable is, did Massa already know of the Piquet-Whiting dialogue from his countryman Nelson Piquet Sr or Jr? It is certainly very hard to believe that the Piquets would not have informed Massa that same weekend or shortly after of the conspiracy and the fact that the FIA has been notified of it.

Like the delayed action to notify the FIA of conspiracy, the legal action was delayed and only came into action after the late Chalie Whiting had passed away. Conveniently, he is not present to argue the case for FIA in the action and thought process that transpired on that faithful day.

The Massa story gains sympathy on the back of the raw emotions that linger over the shameful Abu Dhabi incident where it appeared clearer than ever that the outcome of the 2021 championship may have been predetermined.

The more l look at the Massa action, the more questionable it becomes to me. You may have a different opinion of course. I am just not comfortable seeing Charlie Whiiting's name and reputation run through the mud because he is not here to defend himself. That is what it is going to come down to, he failed in his duty to act.

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You seem to assume Nelson Sr. knew what had happened when it did .
Is that true ?
It may have been that junior didn't let anybody know right away , not even dad .

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Piquet Sr probably did not know in Singapore. But he must have known not very long after. Which may have been not very long after the event. He must have known weeks before the Brazillian GP at least. It is not believable that he only knew about it after the final race of the season.

2008 FIA Calendar

15 28th September Singapore Grand Prix Singapore Street Circuit (night race)
16 12th October Japanese Grand Prix Fuji Speedway
17 19th October Chinese Grand Prix Shanghai International Circuit
18 2nd November Brazilian Grand Prix Autodromo Jose Carlos Pace, Interlagos, Sao Paulo

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So , you don't actually know then ?

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

What is your point?

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My point is that you are speculating about all this based on speculation that Sr. knew about the scam earlier than he let on .

Consider first that Jr. wasn't likely proud of the action . and may not have wanted anyone to know , especially Dad .
Then , think about the pressure from Flav and Renault to keep it quiet .

You also have the home town boy first "winning" the race , then , later the same lap , Lewis passing Timo for the win , breaking heart of Brazil .


All we really know is that , according to Bernie and the Piquets , they knew in time to make a decision about it .
But the decision they made , they said , did not consider it because they only found out when it was revealed the next year when they snubbed the son for the seat .

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

But you are claiming that in the intervening six weeks leading to the Brazilian GP, Piquet Sr did not know until the very end of the Brazilian GP after Massa had lost the title. This is simply not believable.

One of these two scenarios are basis for the credibility of the story from Massa. At what point did Piquet Sr know of the Renault conspiracy? This would form the basis of the FIA deciding whether the information is with or without a hidden agenda to overturn the championship outcome of the 2008 championship. If they thought, there was a hidden agenda, the situation was most likely not going to fall under the normal procedures of the FIA; which is defined for bonifide and credible sources of information.

Piquet Sr being an F1 champion can do the maths to work out that without the Singapore GP, the championship can be reverted to Massa.

If he knew well in advance, then why did he not notify the FIA the instant he found out? If he found out at the Brazilian GP, then at what point during the race weekend did he find out? At the start of the race, during the race, or at the very end of the race?

I think they have seen a title stolen from Hamilton and think he is a soft target and they are taking a long shot to see if they can pull it off.

If their story had any gravitas, l think Ferrari would have shown some support for their cause. This one is likely to end in an embarrassing way.

The other question is, was Piquet Sr as the source of the information, one of the recognized sources of information to activate the reaction of the FIA? we don't know that either. There are a few things we do not know.

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No .
I'm saying we don't know , and giving you examples of the opposite scenario to yours .

I'm a little baffled at the use of the words "hidden agenda" , as this implies that there was something nefarious about it .
Your comments about Lewis being a "soft target" reveal your own hidden agenda .

Lewis and his fans will rightly see it as a rival trying to steal his championship , but they should remember that , Massa and his fans see it the exactly opposite way , and have done so since it was all revealed those many years ago .

Don't fall down some deep conspiracy rabbit hole over this .

Massa wants the race nullified , and given it was only 15 laps in , he maybe has a point .
He doesn't want it counted at lap 14 , as that would be half points awarded , and he'd lose out to Hamilton again .
He doesn't want to have just the Renaults removed as he'd still lose out .

If it can be actually proven that Sr. was told and then told Charly, and he told Max and Bernie within the allowable time frame , then Massa has a point .

If the FIA decides that the appropriate measure is to nullify the race , then to award him a trophy , it might be proper to call them "co-winners" or something akin to that , as it is in no way Lewis's fault .

I think it's all a bit academic , though , as first , you need to embarrass some big wigs , and a "perfect" organization , then have them chose the one of three options they have to deal with the issue .
Good luck with that .

I've met Massa , and I see him as a pouty little turd , but I wouldn't mind seeing him with a trophy , as long as Lewis doesn't lose his .

Your recent edit is telling Nitrodaze. When someone points out that you are not speaking known truths but dealing in speculation, and it's true, questioning their character isn't the appropriate action to take.


IF this conversation with Piquet Sr. and Charlie took place at all, chances are only Piquet Sr and Jr are aware of when he was given the information, why the delay took place, and why it came up at the end of the race in Brazil. Yet you're rattling on about what is impossible when 1000's of scenarios are possible, and at this point of time none of us know which might be truth.

Just as with your often frequent other conspiracy theories, this one is much the same. Essentially that people conspired to screw Lewis over, and this is just another example of that. But for anyone that can look at this case without bias, Lewis has nothing to do with any potential wrongdoing, possibility for punishment, or anything else. He would simply be the guy that awarded the title that might have rightly belonged to another. Nobody would blame Lewis for accepting a title awarded, nor would anyone most likely think anything less of Lewis if the FIA member(s) acted in poor faith and didn't do the right thing.

Not everyone else's Formula 1 world revolves around Lewis. Though I was never a big Massa fan myself if he got screwed out of a title that by the regs at the time was rightly his, they should right that wrong. And though you bring it up any chance you have, this is not even remotely similar to the results of AD '21. This is an instance that, if proven true, shows they covered up a race fixing incident and let it slide.

"Please don't start the Hamilton fans crap. This is a plain discussion which incidentally affects Hamilton."

Many , many times you have called me out for being a Hamilton hater because I dared to disagree about some issue or incident in which he was involved .
Do you see that irony ?

It's OK to be a Hamilton fan , you know .


In the quote from Bernie that shifter posted , I would interpret "we" as "Max and I" , as the show was basically run by those two cowboys .

As for Massa making his claim and invoking a "microscope" reaction , perhaps the dirty dealings need that , to sort out why things were done the way they were .

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Please just join the conversation. Having a go at me only brings about a reaction to your jibes and the conversation disintegrates into an argument rather than a discussion.

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If you find argument in others stating known facts as such, or that speculation is just that, then you probably should just write all these thoughts in your personal journal and be done with it. At this point you've engaged in deep conspiracy theories on several levels well outside this incident, but insist that only your speculation on the matters must be considered feasible. You've made digs at essentially anyone that might dare question your speculation or opinion, and then claim to be a victim when you're called out on it. Your reactions are a result of convincing yourself that you are in your own mind a greater authority on all these matters than others could possibly be.

There are very few things known in this entire matter, other than Felipe has a number of lawyers and is moving forward.

If you want to go deep into your rabbit hole of conspiracy theories and vast speculation, accept the fact that others might not agree with it. And accept that statements of others are just as valid as a possible cause, opinion, reason, etc as your own, especially when people clearly label them with "if" and "might have" type qualifying statements. You're no more an authority on any of these matters than anyone else following the story, and being that we are all still only dealing with claims and accusations yet to be proven to have even taken place, there is really no room for anyone to start speaking in absolutes.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

This is a thread that you started. As the author of the thread, it is up to you to conduct yourself in an exemplary manner to everyone who contributes to your thread. Insulting or using disparaging words to those who contribute to your thread would simply inform them and other readers of this threads to avoid your threads in the future.

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I suppose you don't see the irony in this post , either .

You are a Lewis Hamilton fan behind a thin veil .

Did I just insult you ?

I just fixed two holes in the fence where the rabbits were getting into the garden .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

I just fixed two holes in the fence where the rabbits were getting into the garden .

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Be cautious Bagwan. Once those rabbits get in, you can end up with rabbit holes, and if you start going down them.... well we see how that works out for some people!




Sorry Nitrodaze, I'm not going to play along with your victim mentality and continued jabs and conspiracy theories. You are the one editing and deleting posts that are lame and childish attempts IMHO to stop others from ever differing with anything you claim, even that which is known to be simply speculation. You edited a post taking a shot at Bagwan in this thread, and then deleted another taking a shot at me. So no... I'm not going to play along with the victim game.

Everyone else on here manages to get along without resorting to insults, even when we often vary in opinions and discussions in facts. Don't expect the world to change around your views. For years now you've attempted to paint many others as uninformed, grossly biased, haters, racists and more... usually only in defense of all things Hamilton. Yet these are people you know little or anything about. The forum deserves better than childlike actions when engaging in discussion or debate. If you can't slow yourself down enough to see the irony in attacking other forum members then claiming to be attacked, maybe you should just not post until you collect your thoughts better. If you post nonsense, people might call it out as nonsense, and that applies to all of us.

Conspiracy theories happen all the time in F1, and you're more than entitled to discuss whatever conspiracy theory you might have. But when you expect others to engage, that's their choice, not a requirement. And when they reach a point of too deep a theory, usually someone will point out that it's over the top.

Not that any of this matters. According to one of my former neighbors Hamilton was never the legit winner of the title in 2008 regardless. To him the fact that it happened on the last corner, on the last lap, of the last race of the reason was absolute proof that the title was gifted to him. And he probably still believes that to this day. But belief doesn't make him correct. :laugh:

"Be cautious Bagwan. Once those rabbits get in, you can end up with rabbit holes, and if you start going down them.... well we see how that works out for some people! '

It was pure coincidence , shifter , that I was forced to fix it today .
I had to chase a bunny out just yesterday , and earlier in the year he messed with the trophy wife's beans , so the saggy gate that allowed entry (and exit when I caught him in there) needed work .

I was glad to read the words "rabbit hole" in this thread as it reminded me of the fix that was needed .

Looks like I chased a bunny out of the garden and this thread .

Well at least you can tell Trophy Wife with a straight face that the reason her beans are safe now is due to you spending time on the forum. Not that I ​would tell her that, but you could. :D


After some digging I found some interview stuff from Max and his comments on the Spingate incident. I had originally thought it was Bernie that did the interview. If anything really gets proven they are going to look like not much action was really taken in the long term. The piece also goes into how it was different from Spygate, and why they let that slide with the huge fine.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/q-...33327/4433327/


"Q. So therefore any penalty, should you find Renault guilty, would have to be severe to prove you are fair?MM: Depending again on all the circumstances, probably. If you look at any other sport, if somebody fixes the result then it's usually taken seriously.
Fixing is one degree worse than cheating, like if you're a cyclist and you take dope, that's cheating. If you bribe the other cyclists, or you get somebody to have a crash in the peloton so the yellow jersey guy crashes, that's more serious.
Then if it puts human life at risk, whether it's the spectators, the marshals or the drivers, then it's more serious again. The moment we talk about that, we sort of imply they are guilty, but we don't know. Until they put their defence in, we've got to assume they're innocent."

Well the ball is still moving. I had seen articles on the expectation of the FIA reply to the initial "Letter Before Claim" notice to F1 and the FIA. Some articles state that Massa's lawyers initially wanted a quicker response, but agreed to add time due to the summer break and schedules.

https://www.reuters.com/sports/motor...eve%20Nielsen.

Multiple sources are stating Massa has lawyers in several countries, and I'm sure that doesn't come cheap.... unless they are sure they can recover money. Sources are claiming the demand is for 13 million. In terms of F1 drivers money, not a lot really. And when you consider that might include the attorneys fees, Massa wouldn't get a big payout if it was awarded. It almost seems he is more about exposing the system rather than seeking a huge money grab.

Only time will tell, but they don't seem to be wanting to back down on the matter easily.

Expose that system , Flip .
The two guys in the drivers's seat at the time are dead and doddering .
It's a moment for the new guys to take a step to fix it .
The longer it goes on , the more toxic it will become for the governing body , so a clean-up at a cost of a mere 13 million that could put this ugly bunny to bed could be easily worth it .
It could restore some faith in the FIA , and get the bad taste out of the mouth of a whole country .

Here's a conspiracy theory for you :
Renault must have known this would come up eventually , and that's probably why they changed the name to Alpine .
Massa probably called to warn them .

I'm sure if he honestly feels the title was wrongly awarded then holding someone accountable is a big deal. I'd have to think the legal fees would eat up a lot of money if he does get any, so it doesn't really seem to be a money grab. I'm sure the people running the show now would rather not have to deal with it, but even if Felipe doesn't take things very fare it does sort of put the current powers that be on notice that they are not above legal actions if they make poor decisions.

I guess we'll start seeing what the current bodies think within a month or so.

This has been silent for quite some time, but apparently now there is legal action with an amount attached.

Felipe is seeking 80 million for damages. All said and done, IF there ends up being sufficient evidence, it's really not that large of an amount to ask for.

Maybe now in forums across the globe, people can quit speculating on the Horner stuff to speculate on the Massa stuff for a while. Having seen some of the nonsense posted on other forums, some people really, really, really need the break. And those people still want the court of public opinion to decide on Horner.... as long as it's what they speculate.