Let's talk Aston Martin

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Courtesy Independent

I sort of had a reservation on Aston Martin's showing in Bahrain. My initial thought was it was a flash in the pan and they would disappear back into the midfield where they once were. But why did l think that? Firstly, their step forward is so big compared to last year at Bahrain, about 2 seconds which is enormous by F1 standards. That is the sort of jump that one expects from Mercedes or Ferrari. Certainly, not a midfield jockey like Force India in Aston Martin green. And Jeddah shows that they actually have genuine pace and are faster than Mercedes and Ferrari. They are the closest challenger to the mighty Redbull.

Aston Martin has a factor that is evident in all previous F1 teams that have tasted the successes of winning world championships. That is having a commanding figure that steers the team towards success. At Mclaren it was Ron Dennis, Williams it was Frank Williams, Redbull, it was Dietrich Mateschitz and Mercedes had Niki Lauda. The ultimate commander was Enzo Ferrari. We can now add Lawrence Stroll to this illustrious list. He has repositioned what was Force India into a major brand named team and assembled a dream team of engineers that is showing all the signs that this team has the potential of becoming a world championship contender; possibly this season. But l really hope that can do so by next season at least.

Alonso has really demonstrated the pace of the car and l can see it improving as the season progresses. The season would certainly develop into a classic season if a situation of Verstappen vs Alonso duelling transpires. Throw in Perez to spice it up. I really hope they have not hit the max capability at this stage, l hope there is still more performance in that car.

I was even so impressed with Lance Stroll jumping in the car with all that pain from his injury to do so well in the top ten at Bahrain and Jeddah. Their rate of progress has got to be a worry for Redbull and certainly Mercedes and Ferrari. The question is can they find the performance hike to give Redbull a bit of bother as the season progresses? Alonso has been here before in the Ferrari fighting Vettel in the Redbull, surely he would relish another close fight with them.

I think its more a three way tie for second. Unless the Red Bull team's reliability is more fragile than we think. Then all bets are off.

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Originally Posted by Used to be Starter

I think its more a three way tie for second. Unless the Red Bull team's reliability is more fragile than we think. Then all bets are off.

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That is how it seems at the moment. But l think there may be some changes when the first raft of updates arrives at the various teams by a quarter of the season.

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Originally Posted by Used to be Starter

I think its more a three way tie for second. Unless the Red Bull team's reliability is more fragile than we think. Then all bets are off.

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I’m genuinely surprised by Aston Martin’s pace so far this year. Probably not as surprised as the boys over in the Merc garage though. :D

And Starter, my man, how’s it going?! :cool: Any plans to head to Summit Point or VIR this year?

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Aston Martin has a factor that is evident in all previous F1 teams that have tasted the successes of winning world championships. That is having a commanding figure that steers the team towards success. At Mclaren it was Ron Dennis, Williams it was Frank Williams, Redbull, it was Dietrich Mateschitz and Mercedes had Niki Lauda. The ultimate commander was Enzo Ferrari. We can now add Lawrence Stroll to this illustrious list.

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Sorry, what? After two races where Fernando Alonso - one of the most formidable racers in F1 history - has managed to drag one of his cars onto the bottom step of the podium, you're anointing Lawrence 'bought a team so that my boy has a permanent seat in F1' Stroll as the heir of Enzo Ferrari?

Come on now. Put the glue down.

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Originally Posted by ouvreur

Sorry, what? After two races where Fernando Alonso - one of the most formidable racers in F1 history - has managed to drag one of his cars onto the bottom step of the podium, you're anointing Lawrence 'bought a team so that my boy has a permanent seat in F1' Stroll as the heir of Enzo Ferrari?

Come on now. Put the glue down.

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I see your point, he is not in the class of Enzo or Mateschitz yet as the Aston Martin has not won any of the F1 championship titles yet. But he has dragged that team to a level higher than it had ever achieved in all its previous guises. Since Mercedes is eating Aston Martin dust at the moment is worthy of some appreciation. He had the vision to bring Alonso into the team, so it is not all Alonso. It also the great team of engineers that has produced a car that is capable of beating Ferrari and Mercedes. And they certainly have their sights on Redbull now.

Yes, l do get carried away sometimes :-)

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

I see your point, he is not in the class of Enzo or Mateschitz yet as the Aston Martin has not won any of the F1 championship titles yet. But he has dragged that team to a level higher than it had ever achieved in all its previous guises. That Mercedes is eating Aston Martin dust is worthy of some appreciation. He had the vision to bring Alonso into the team, som it is not all Alonso. It also the great team of engineers that has produced a car that is capable of beating Ferrari and Mercedes. And they certainly have their sights on Redbull.

Yes, l do get carried away sometimes :-)

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This is a team that has won races in the past, don't forget... 4 of them as Jordan... in 1999 they were legitimate championship chasers, capable of winning races on merit.

For Lawrence Stroll's undeniable vision, he has a significant blind spot when it comes to his kid. He's not a bad driver by any stretch of the imagination, but he's not someone that any other team would be in a rush to put in their car (unless of course he was bringing daddy's money along with him for the ride). Better drivers are available, or at least affordable.

They've done a good job of this year's car, that much is undeniable, but they're hardly kicking Ferrari or Mercedes' heads in. You'd have an easier time arguing Ferrari and Mercedes are kicking their own heads in, than being made to eat Aston Martin's dust. Any dust presently being eaten appears to be on an entirely voluntary basis.

As for being able to keep up with or beat Red Bull, that's another matter altogether, and one I'd be more confident in Ferrari and Mercedes eventually achieving this year than AM.

We're two races into the longest-ever season. Let's not get carried away. A good start does not guarantee a successful season overall.

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Originally Posted by ouvreur

Sorry, what? After two races where Fernando Alonso - one of the most formidable racers in F1 history - has managed to drag one of his cars onto the bottom step of the podium, you're anointing Lawrence 'bought a team so that my boy has a permanent seat in F1' Stroll as the heir of Enzo Ferrari?

Come on now. Put the glue down.

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Just about sprayed coffee on the keyboard on that one .
Thanks .

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Yes, l do get carried away sometimes :-)

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Mind if we refer to this quote when you do ?

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Originally Posted by ouvreur

This is a team that has won races in the past, don't forget... 4 of them as Jordan... in 1999 they were legitimate championship chasers, capable of winning races on merit.

For Lawrence Stroll's undeniable vision, he has a significant blind spot when it comes to his kid. He's not a bad driver by any stretch of the imagination, but he's not someone that any other team would be in a rush to put in their car (unless of course he was bringing daddy's money along with him for the ride). Better drivers are available, or at least affordable.

They've done a good job of this year's car, that much is undeniable, but they're hardly kicking Ferrari or Mercedes' heads in. You'd have an easier time arguing Ferrari and Mercedes are kicking their own heads in, than being made to eat Aston Martin's dust. Any dust presently being eaten appears to be on an entirely voluntary basis.

As for being able to keep up with or beat Red Bull, that's another matter altogether, and one I'd be more confident in Ferrari and Mercedes eventually achieving this year than AM.

We're two races into the longest-ever season. Let's not get carried away. A good start does not guarantee a successful season overall.

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I am not sure why you are making this about Lance. What we are talking about is that this is the first time that this rendition of this team has had a real chance of a sniff at world championship title contention. It is a great F1 story and it would be a fairytale if they can at least finish second or even third in the championship. That would be an immense achievement, judging by where they have come from in the depths of the midfield. Not to mention the stiff competition they are likely to face in the near future from Mercedes and Ferrari.

However, l admit it is too early to be putting out praises. It is only two races in and the season is potentially full of twists and turns yet to unfold. Watch this space though.

A revisit of Hamilton vs Alonso would be a great spectacle to behold. Assuming Mercedes can find their mojo.

I'm hoping that this is about Fernando AND Lance .
Remember , the wounded "hero" isn't actually that far behind .

And , Red Bull isn't that far ahead .

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Originally Posted by ouvreur

This is a team that has won races in the past, don't forget... 4 of them as Jordan... in 1999 they were legitimate championship chasers, capable of winning races on merit.

For Lawrence Stroll's undeniable vision, he has a significant blind spot when it comes to his kid. He's not a bad driver by any stretch of the imagination, but he's not someone that any other team would be in a rush to put in their car (unless of course he was bringing daddy's money along with him for the ride). Better drivers are available, or at least affordable.

They've done a good job of this year's car, that much is undeniable, but they're hardly kicking Ferrari or Mercedes' heads in. You'd have an easier time arguing Ferrari and Mercedes are kicking their own heads in, than being made to eat Aston Martin's dust. Any dust presently being eaten appears to be on an entirely voluntary basis.

As for being able to keep up with or beat Red Bull, that's another matter altogether, and one I'd be more confident in Ferrari and Mercedes eventually achieving this year than AM.

We're two races into the longest-ever season. Let's not get carried away. A good start does not guarantee a successful season overall.

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And long term, they have been as high as 4th in the WCC under both the Force India and Racing Point hats. Sergio gave them a win in the end of 2020. It's only due to slipping back that they have the chance to rise up again this year, and I agree that with both Merc and Ferrari in disarray it shouldn't be all that hard unless some people start making changes quickly.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

And long term, they have been as high as 4th in the WCC under both the Force India and Racing Point hats. Sergio gave them a win in the end of 2020. It's only due to slipping back that they have the chance to rise up again this year, and I agree that with both Merc and Ferrari in disarray it shouldn't be all that hard unless some people start making changes quickly.

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I think the open aspiration this year is to do more than just win races but to challenge Redbul for the championship. You missing the fact that the aim has moved from where you see them.

Mercedes have finally closed well up to Aston Martin in the constructors championship with only one point separating both teams. The fight for second place in the championship just became intensified at this Barcelona race, as Mercedes seem set to move up into second position if the Aston is unable to get at least one car ahead of both Mercedes by the end of this race. I think it is one of those that would change hands interchangeably until the end of the season

What can we expect from Aston Martin at the Budapest GP? Hungary used to be a great track for Hamilton. The characteristics of the track would suggest Verstappen would be mighty there. But how would the 2nd tier behind him shape out?

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

What can we expect from Aston Martin at the Budapest GP? Hungary used to be a great track for Hamilton. The characteristics of the track would suggest Verstappen would be mighty there. But how would the 2nd tier behind him shape out?

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The Hungaroring is also the site of Alonso's first victory in 2003 and Aston Martin almost scored a podium there in 2021 before Vettel was DQ'd from his P2 finish. I thinkt might well be AM's last chance for a podium this year (apart from maybe Singapure, if they should decide to replace Lance with Nelsinho Piquet for that race ;) )

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Originally Posted by gm99

The Hungaroring is also the site of Alonso's first victory in 2003 and Aston Martin almost scored a podium there in 2021 before Vettel was DQ'd from his P2 finish. I thinkt might well be AM's last chance for a podium this year (apart from maybe Singapure, if they should decide to replace Lance with Nelsinho Piquet for that race ;) )

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Hey , you be nice now !

They've been talking about it being a good spot for them to make their mark , so it could be a possible win .
Maybe , possibly .

For a few races now , they've seemed to just accept where they were with a shrug .
It seems like they need a good one to relight the flame .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Hey , you be nice now !

They've been talking about it being a good spot for them to make their mark , so it could be a possible win .
Maybe , possibly .

For a few races now , they've seemed to just accept where they were with a shrug .
It seems like they need a good one to relight the flame .

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I doubt the Aston Martin car; even in the capable hands of Alonso would beat Verstappenn and Redbull at Budapest. It would have to take something very special from them to do that. Based on their recent performances, their best performnce would be to challenge Mclaren. Even so, they would need to have found something new to add to the car.

We expect a new surge forward from Aston Martin in the next few races. Hence, their return to 2nd place is anticipated but not guaranteed. Mclaren seeem to have found something special and they have a good hike in performance even before fully understanding everything of the upgrade. I am expecting more from Mclaren. The fight for 2nd place seem to be shaping out to be between Mclaren and Aston Martin. Incidentally, both are Mercedes customer teams.

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Originally Posted by gm99

The Hungaroring is also the site of Alonso's first victory in 2003 and Aston Martin almost scored a podium there in 2021 before Vettel was DQ'd from his P2 finish. I thinkt might well be AM's last chance for a podium this year (apart from maybe Singapure, if they should decide to replace Lance with Nelsinho Piquet for that race ;) )

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Ha ha ha

The famous Renault Crashgate

What's happened to Aston Martin? How did the wheels come off their very promising start to the season? Can they recover?

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

What's happened to Aston Martin? How did the wheels come off their very promising start to the season? Can they recover?

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Nothing that hasn't happened to smaller teams before. Other teams with bigger resources (especially Mercedes and Ferrari, but also McLaren) have overtaken them. Remember 2009? Brawn won six out of the first seven races, but only two of the last ten, as Red Bull and McLaren caught up.
I don't think they will recover, they'll finish P4 in the constructor's at best, although in their current form McLaren might well overtake them as well by the end of the season.

Bagwan was the first to point this out.....

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Yes, l do get carried away sometimes :-)

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Early season results don't mean long term results. In this case the others have done better on upgrades and AM is more towards stagnant in comparison. Combine that with the really big driver difference they have, and they aren't pulling the solid points they need.

Papa Stroll needs to get a new driver soon.

AM have been a little distracted of late , completing the building of the home base .
That might have played a role to an extent , but I think they also got caught out by the new tire construction , as Fred has said , at the the same time as trying to figure out how to best use the new package .

As far as Lance goes , the package as it was , and is , hasn't suited him as well as it has his team mate .
He's always been within two or three tenths , and occasionally has been right with him . That seems far more consistent than he's been before .

He now has a guy beside him who is truly mentoring the lad .
Massa , as a mentor , was an absolute failure .
Seb did some better , but owing to the fact the car was a dog , couldn't help much .

He now has the best guy beside him that he could possibly have , so I have faith that the whole shebang will come good , and soon .

Hero Lance , who everybody pictures with an asterisk next to him , starts every race with more pressure than most , and I think he deserves a little more time .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

AM have been a little distracted of late , completing the building of the home base .
That might have played a role to an extent , but I think they also got caught out by the new tire construction , as Fred has said , at the the same time as trying to figure out how to best use the new package .

As far as Lance goes , the package as it was , and is , hasn't suited him as well as it has his team mate .
He's always been within two or three tenths , and occasionally has been right with him . That seems far more consistent than he's been before .

He now has a guy beside him who is truly mentoring the lad .
Massa , as a mentor , was an absolute failure .
Seb did some better , but owing to the fact the car was a dog , couldn't help much .

He now has the best guy beside him that he could possibly have , so I have faith that the whole shebang will come good , and soon .

Hero Lance , who everybody pictures with an asterisk next to him , starts every race with more pressure than most , and I think he deserves a little more time .

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We would have to see what Aston Martin brings to the Dutch GP. If it is not competitive enough to beat Mclaren and Mercedes, then they would have squandered their wind tunnel advantages. The upgrades they brought towards the end of the first half of the season seemed to indicate that they have gone down a bad design route which has not translated into performance gain. But has seen the AM cars drift backward into the depth of the midfield. That is so easy to happen as the midfield is so tight this season. A few-tenths loss of relative performance could mean as much as four places drop down the grid.

The second half of this season is about whether AM can recover to the correct or optimum design groove that would set them back on track to claiming the coveted 2nd place ahead of Mercedes and Mcclaren. Or have they decided to abandon this season and focus on the 2024 car as Redbull and Mercedes have done?

They lost their way at some point during the season and could be costly to how well they finish this season or impact how well next season's car turns out.

On Lance Stroll, considering how he started this season, he has done reasonably well. But that does not remove the question of whether some other driver would not be doing better in that car than he is able to produce. Unfortunately, this question is asked of all number two drivers on the grid. By number two, l mean those drivers lagging behind their teammates in points. More so if the gap is significant. Considering the state of the car before the summer break, l don't think Lance has much to worry about.

We are getting to the point of starting to think about 2024. What would be the most ideal situation to make the grid more excitingly competitive, l asked myself.

The answer that came to mind was to have Alonso in a proper championship-winning car, with Hamilton and Verstappen in equally competitive car from start to end of the 2024 season. What a cracking season that would be. I can dream about this but reality may well be the opposite which is sad really. I think we have all worked out that the Redbull car is the fastest. What we need to find out is, which of these three drivers would come on top in wheel-to-wheel battle in their current form.

Is Verstappen in the same category as Hamilton, Alonso and Schumacher? I remain unconvinced but l would dearly love to be proved wrong. Maybe l should say not yet but he could be.

Ps, the 2021 season does not count in my opinion.

No doubt that Alonso always races hard, and I think he gets better over time. But this was just not the track for the AM, and Singapore is most likely their best chance of being at the top step IMHO. Even that might take some troubles for RB, but I think it's possible with Alonso at the helm.


As for driver comparisons, it's rare that we get more than a year or two here and there with the top drivers all in top cars, and history has proven that there can be ebb and flow even within a top team. The only way to know for sure would be a spec series, and even then certain cars will suit certain driving styles. Though many get involved in the mental gymnastics to always put their favored drivers on top, it's really not worth the time in my view. For all we know the greatest of all time might have been overlooked while in the back of the pack car, after having a poor start to a career, and/or been pushed out by a pay driver. Most of the time there are probably at least 4-5 that could be at the front given equal cars, but we also know that will never happen.