What next for the three pointed LOSERS?

With the decision not to appeal, we wonder what is next for the losers of the 2021 driver's title? It would be a bitter pill to take for a seven-time world champion, would be willing to enter the 2022 season as a loser of the 2021 championship. It would not matter the circumstances in which he lost it at lights out of the first race of 2022.

Can he race in this series with confidence, deep down thinking that it may turn against him again in the future? Can he trust his team? After all, listening to their instructions not to pit was a fundamental reason for being vulnerable when things turned against him. When you take these things into consideration, it looks like it is very possible that hamilton's love for the sport has taken a serious bashing. He would need to be prepared to be a repeat loser to want to continue. As his ability is not what matters anymore but who to trust. He is without doubt the greatest racer on the current grid, it is a testament that they had to cheat to dethrone him.

It is a shame, but it is very possible that the 2021 season may be the last time that we see this incredible talent turn an F1 car in anger. And when we talk of this truly great talent we would retort the shame of the FIA, F1 management and Mercedes in their part in seeing to it that they bring his career to an early end.

On a serious note, if Hamilton departs, who would take his seat?

My money is on Ocon partnering Russell, with possibly Nick De fries replacing Ocon at Alpine. But l think Alpine may probably prefer to go with their own Oscar Piastri. But what if Alpine refuse to release Ocon? Mercedes may make a move for Verstappen or Gasly? Gasly would be easier to pry away from Redbull than Verstappen that has found a new love for Redbull. Let's not forget Norris who has really impressed this season. Like Ferrari, they would have two young fiesty driver lineups for the 2022 season.

Did I stumble into the "Coronation Street" subforum by any chance? So much pathos...

I don't think Lewis came out of this as a loser. On the contrary, his gracious reaction and sincere congratulations to Max have earned him some well-deserved sympathies.
As a professional racing driver, he has dealt with defeats before and he knows how to handle them (something I'm not so sure about regarding some of his supporters).
I'm pretty sure he won't be doing a Rosberg and will be back for another attempt at his eighth title.

I think Lewis wants that eighth title before he retires. He will come out stronger next season.

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

I think Lewis wants that eighth title before he retires. He will come out stronger next season.

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I agree. I expect that Mercedes will be back to having an overly dominant car (with the low rake design) and then adding in Russell. They will be running circles around the field.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Can he trust his team? After all, listening to their instructions not to pit was a fundamental reason for being vulnerable when things turned against him.

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The call they made, in the circumstances, was 100% correct. If things had gone as - according to the regulations - they should have, he would have won. It is not Mercedes' fault that something bizarre happened.

Russel will not give in to team orders, he is the future for Mercedes. Norris will come on strong I think (and hope). Lewis will try take the throne ones moore, but if he aint near it by the end of the season he will call it a day.

I'm glad lewis is not as sour a loser as his fanboys here.

It's over, so you better try to get over it too.

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Originally Posted by ouvreur

The call they made, in the circumstances, was 100% correct. If things had gone as - according to the regulations - they should have, he would have won. It is not Mercedes' fault that something bizarre happened.

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OOh i strongly disagree. Things happen because you let it. If the tables were turned and Redbull was in Mercede's position, l am sure we would not hear the end of this until it has gone through all possible avenues to correct the injustice. This happened to Mercedes because all involved believed they can get away with it. They would have a totally different mindset if it were Redbull. The steely rugged persona of the Redbull establishment is not one that Masi would have messed with. The easily risk-averse and confrontation avoiding Mercedes on the other hand is one this sort of thing can happen to without consequences.
It is not about fault, it is about which of the two teams are ideal victims.

They had no idea that the race director would apply an unprecedented interpretation of the sporting regulations. If they had pitted, and things worked as they normally should have done, Verstappen would have won by just staying out.

Hindsight is always 20/20. The right call was made by the team regarding pitting or not at the time.

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Originally Posted by ouvreur

They had no idea that the race director would apply an unprecedented interpretation of the sporting regulations. If they had pitted, and things worked as they normally should have done, Verstappen would have won by just staying out.

Hindsight is always 20/20. The right call was made by the team regarding pitting or not at the time.

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That is not the point. We have supported and defended Mercedes' position here robustly. The point is they have proved to be the ideal victim for this to happen to one of their own. Redbull would turn everything upside down if they have to, had this happened to Verstappen. Mercedes are a bit too nice and when you are everyone walks all over you. So without prejudice of any kind, my observation is that they are the ideal victim for this sort of thing to happen without any real consequences. I bet we would see Masi back at work next season.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

I'm glad lewis is not as sour a loser as his fanboys here.

It's over, so you better try to get over it too.

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Well, it is not over. It is with us for every season into the future. This would happen again, l assure you. The precedent for it to happen has just been laid down by Masi. It is now within the power of the Race Director to determine who wins and loses.

As far as Hamilton goes. I personally do not think he lost. In my eyes, he is not a loser. However, l think the Petronas-Mercedes team lost the driver's title of 2021 because they set up the scenario for this to happen by failing to change tyres at two opportunities to do so. A decision that left Hamilton vulnerable when the decision of Race Control altered the format of the racing.

While the aim is not to remove the championship title from Verstappen, he has deserved it. Petronas-Mercedes owe it to their champion, who has mostly secured them their 2021 constructor's title, to put up a robust challenge of the situation. Consequently, the loss of the driver title fails squarely on Mercedes. They are the losers here.

Besides, if you look at my posts going back seven years, you would find that l am an avid advocate for fairness in all manner of life and racing. If this was happening to Verstappen, l would be just as robust in my views. I wish l could say that for some.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

However, l think the Petronas-Mercedes team lost the driver's title of 2021 because they set up the scenario for this to happen by failing to change tyres at two opportunities to do so. A decision that left Hamilton vulnerable when the decision of Race Control altered the format of the racing.

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I'm sorry, I realise you're quite badly hurt by this, and nothing I say is going to change your mind, but that's not a healthy way to look at it.

If they had brought Hamilton in for tyres, the work of a Red Bull-favouring race director would have been simple - just leave the SC out 'til the chequered flag.

Based on their (correct) interpretation of the rules, on precedent, and on simple common sense, Mercedes made the right call in leaving Hamilton out.

You can query their decision not to appeal (although I would bet that they're getting something in return for not pushing ahead), but their race strategy on this occasion was pretty much faultless.

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Originally Posted by ouvreur

I'm sorry, I realise you're quite badly hurt by this, and nothing I say is going to change your mind, but that's not a healthy way to look at it.

If they had brought Hamilton in for tyres, the work of a Red Bull-favouring race director would have been simple - just leave the SC out 'til the chequered flag.

Based on their (correct) interpretation of the rules, on precedent, and on simple common sense, Mercedes made the right call in leaving Hamilton out.

You can query their decision not to appeal (although I would bet that they're getting something in return for not pushing ahead), but their race strategy on this occasion was pretty much faultless.

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Ok l am not communicating my views properly. The tyre decision is immaterial at this point. It is taking responsibility to do what is respectable. Caving in and letting the possibility of this repeating itself in the future is not respectable. The FIA analysis and clarification is a PR exercise to quell this and brush it under the carpet.

My deep pain here is whether we would ever see another fair championship title outcome without the backroom fiddling to manipulate who becomes world champion. If you don't get the magnitude of what has happened, then l cannot explain it any further.

It is not about Hamilton or Verstappen. It is about the soul of the Formula. The very essence of what the championship means. What this Masi stunt has come to mean, is that F1 is a circus. Like those coin machines designed to steal your money, the championship title is now at the discretion of the Race Director where the situation presents itself.

I think the fact the FIA are openly discussing Hamiltons failure to show at the gala, and the consequences of him not following the rules shows how stupid and shortsighted Mercs decision was to drop the appeal.
Add in the Ecclestones comments about no one should beat Schumachers record and then the promotion to vice president for Mrs Ecclestone, well I think what's next is the acceptance that there are going to be one or two disillusioned fans over the coming years.

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Originally Posted by TMorel

I think the fact the FIA are openly discussing Hamiltons failure to show at the gala, and the consequences of him not following the rules shows how stupid and shortsighted Mercs decision was to drop the appeal.
Add in the Ecclestones comments about no one should beat Schumachers record and then the promotion to vice president for Mrs Ecclestone, well I think what's next is the acceptance that there are going to be one or two disillusioned fans over the coming years.

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Why should he abide by the farce by attending the farcical ceremony? F1 and the FIA have a serious image problem. It is probably great Todd is going. About time someone with integrity took over.

"New FIA president Mohammed ben Sulayem has refused to rule out punishing Lewis Hamilton for boycotting its awards ceremony on Thursday.

Hamilton and Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff did not attend in protest at the handling of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix last Sunday.

Formula 1 rules dictate that the top three drivers in the championship must attend.

"If there is any breach, there is no forgiveness in this," Ben Sulayem said."


We royally fecked up your championship but you didn't come to the party.. and so you must be punished.

What are they smoking?

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

It is now within the power of the Race Director to determine who wins and loses.

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The problem is the FIA has not been consistent with their rules all year. So they have had undue influence on the results.

Rules should be applied the same on the first lap as well as the last lap. They have not been whether during this race or during the season. You always rationalized it as Alonso whining, or RBR whining, etc. Now you getting mad about because in your perception Mercedes got the bad side of things.

Again you are mad that Masi didn't unlap all the cars because you were hoping that race would have not started again - because you knew Hamilton hand been hung out to dry by Mercedes since they did not cover up the possibility of late safety car when they had to chance to pit under the VSC.

Root cause why Hamilton lost was because of bad strategy by Mercedes pit wall and bad luck with Latifi crashing out. If Mercedes pits under the VSC they win the race. If Latifi doesn't crash out, Mercedes wins.

Blaming it on Masi and the FIA - well it's been that way all year, so you are not going to get any sympathy, but pushback.

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Originally Posted by F1nKS

The problem is the FIA has not been consistent with their rules all year. So they have had undue influence on the results.

Rules should be applied the same on the first lap as well as the last lap. They have not been whether during this race or during the season. You always rationalized it as Alonso whining, or RBR whining, etc. Now you getting mad about because in your perception Mercedes got the bad side of things.

Again you are mad that Masi didn't unlap all the cars because you were hoping that race would have not started again - because you knew Hamilton hand been hung out to dry by Mercedes since they did not cover up the possibility of late safety car when they had to chance to pit under the VSC.

Root cause why Hamilton lost was because of bad strategy by Mercedes pit wall and bad luck with Latifi crashing out. If Mercedes pits under the VSC they win the race. If Latifi doesn't crash out, Mercedes wins.

Blaming it on Masi and the FIA - well it's been that way all year, so you are not going to get any sympathy, but pushback.

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I don't understand your point. It's been bad all year so do nothing about it. What are you saying?

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Originally Posted by Zico

"New FIA president Mohammed ben Sulayem has refused to rule out punishing Lewis Hamilton for boycotting its awards ceremony on Thursday.

Hamilton and Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff did not attend in protest at the handling of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix last Sunday.

Formula 1 rules dictate that the top three drivers in the championship must attend.

"If there is any breach, there is no forgiveness in this," Ben Sulayem said."


We royally fecked up your championship but you didn't come to the party.. and so you must be punished.

What are they smoking?

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If this is what we would expect from him, FIA is in deep horse crap. BTW he has reasonable credentials but no international sporting experience. Unlike Todd who he is replacing, he is a paperweight compared. That said, a great accolade does not translate to a great presidency. So Mohammed ben Sulayem may well turn out to be a breath of fresh air. The Abu Dhabi crisis is the litmus test. How well he handles it would tell us what we have in store over the next four seasons.

Jean Todd's presidency was punctuated by two major crises; the Ferrari Smokey Engine which got resolved behind closed doors. and the Abu Dhabi farce which he duly ignored and passes on to his replacement. The last three years of his presidency saw the officiating of races become erratic in how the rules were interpreted. And driving standard deteriorated to the point of potential mortal danger. Can it get any worst?

It sucks that it ended that way .

I was , as was everybody , impressed that Lewis shook Max's hand as it showed him as a sporting gentleman in the face of such a stupid ending to the championship .
I was again impressed when he was reported to have been on the side of dropping the appeal despite having endured that stupid ending .

But , sadly , upon hearing that both he and Toto snubbed the affair , I see it as petty , and I question how sincere any congratulations were .

Even more sadly , rather than be a sullen affair for Lewis to have attended , I think , with his originally very magnanimous gestures of congratulations , he might have been up for many accolades and likely ovations at the party .
I think it likely both he and Max would have been lauded almost equally .

It would have been a true display of the "stiff upper lip", worthy of a knight , to have shown up to see his rival take the trophy .
I think he may have had a whack of pats on the back just for that reason alone , let alone all the great driving that had brought him there .

And so , we have a second ending that sucks .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

It sucks that it ended that way .

I was , as was everybody , impressed that Lewis shook Max's hand as it showed him as a sporting gentleman in the face of such a stupid ending to the championship .
I was again impressed when he was reported to have been on the side of dropping the appeal despite having endured that stupid ending .

But , sadly , upon hearing that both he and Toto snubbed the affair , I see it as petty , and I question how sincere any congratulations were .

Even more sadly , rather than be a sullen affair for Lewis to have attended , I think , with his originally very magnanimous gestures of congratulations , he might have been up for many accolades and likely ovations at the party .
I think it likely both he and Max would have been lauded almost equally .

It would have been a true display of the "stiff upper lip", worthy of a knight , to have shown up to see his rival take the trophy .
I think he may have had a whack of pats on the back just for that reason alone , let alone all the great driving that had brought him there .

And so , we have a second ending that sucks .

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I think a very clear protest was required at least. It was a dodgy end to the season and the FIA did not make any effort to review what happened at the end of the race or the next day. They have not shown any motivation to understand if the action of their staff was conducted to their regulations. So l see no reason why Hamilton and Mercedes should attend the FIA ceremonies with the issue unaddressed. They have at least spared the FIA and F1 the aggravation of a long drawn out legal proceedings. I think that was magnanimous.

This is the sort of occasion when one misses Max Mosley. A controversial man but a stickler for fairness and proper procedures.

It would be a mistake for the new president to make an issue out of this. It would only serve to rub salt into wounds that are still very raw. And may lead to unexpected reactions.

On sincerity of Mercedes and Hamilton's congratulatory gestures, It was the right thing to do but does not need to be construed as being happy with the situation. Neither are they obliged to mean it.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

I don't understand your point. It's been bad all year so do nothing about it. What are you saying?

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I already had a thread on how FIA rules (Red flag rules) and Massi don't make sense. Your response was.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

I don't think it is a rule that needs fixing as there is nothing wrong with it.

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You can't see the forest for the trees. If anything, you should be mad about the race results that were a two-lap cruise around the track. Not because Masi only cleared 5 of the 7 or 8 cars (when the rules give Massi the discretion to do that).

Now you want to see a change in the rules? Your problem is you never have a consistent position. You can't fight just when you don't like it when something goes against Hamilton. You have to be consistent regardless of whether it goes against him or not. Right is right, wrong is wrong. There is a lot wrong with the FIA.

The FIA rules and penalties need to be looked at and re-done. The whole steward system is crap. It is amateurish.

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Originally Posted by F1nKS

I already had a thread on how FIA rules (Red flag rules) and Massi don't make sense. Your response was.



You can't see the forest for the trees. If anything, you should be mad about the race results that were a two-lap cruise around the track. Not because Masi only cleared 5 of the 7 or 8 cars (when the rules give Massi the discretion to do that).

Now you want to see a change in the rules? Your problem is you never have a consistent position. You can't fight just when you don't like it when something goes against Hamilton. You have to be consistent regardless of whether it goes against him or not. Right is right, wrong is wrong. There is a lot wrong with the FIA.

The FIA rules and penalties need to be looked at and re-done. The whole steward system is crap. It is amateurish.

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Hello F1nkie. I think you are being inconsistent. Your post was about stopping teams from fixing or changing tyres during red flags. Which the rules allow l might add. Abu Dhabi is about a decision that is not supported by the rules. You seem to have some confusion of what you stand for and what you are arguing about. Read all the threads about this issue and post your perspective with respect to other posters.

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Originally Posted by ouvreur

the work of a Red Bull-favouring race director

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What do you base this statement on?
This incident alone, or more that you can prove that he is biased?

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Originally Posted by Sulland

What do you base this statement on?
This incident alone, or more that you can prove that he is biased?

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It is not a simple case of bias. We all deep down think he is on the take. He is likely to be as dirty as they come.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

It is not a simple case of bias. We all deep down think he is on the take. He is likely to be as dirty as they come.

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Rather than thinking he's on the take , I think he was a guy in a really high pressure , and excessively awkward moment , who made a really bad decision .

So , I'll thank you for not including me in your idea of what's deep down in all of us .

I want you to note my use of the word "think" in my first paragraph .
It denotes that it is my opinion .

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Hello F1nkie. I think you are being inconsistent.

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One thing about you is you are consistently wrong on everything.

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Your post was about stopping teams from fixing or changing tyres during red flags.

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It was much more than that, but as usual you can grasp more than one thing at a time.

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Abu Dhabi is about a decision that is not supported by the rules.

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I guess you didn't get the memo, Mercedes lost the appeal - why because the rules allow the race director to override any rule within the rules.

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You seem to have some confusion of what you stand for and what you are arguing about.

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What does this even mean?

You might go change your tampon.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Hello F1nkie. I think you are being inconsistent. Your post was about stopping teams from fixing or changing tyres during red flags. Which the rules allow l might add. Abu Dhabi is about a decision that is not supported by the rules. You seem to have some confusion of what you stand for and what you are arguing about. Read all the threads about this issue and post your perspective with respect to other posters.

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Having been a fan of F1 for many years this type incident does not do the sport any good at all. It seems that the Fia can be manipulated
and it is so obvious that no way was Hamilton going to be able to be ALLOWED another winning year. Verstappen was boosted up all the way by the media etc which is a wonder his head fitted into his helmet and his attitude is one which should not be admired in the sport.
I have seen them all come and go but this has been the worst ever.

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Originally Posted by Sulland

What do you base this statement on?
This incident alone, or more that you can prove that he is biased?

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In this case, I was talking theoretically - that if Masi was trying to help Red Bull or Verstappen, Hamilton pitting (and ceding track position to Verstappen) would have enabled him to do so without bending or breaking any rules, he could have just left the SC out to the chequered flag.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

It is not a simple case of bias. We all deep down think he is on the take. He is likely to be as dirty as they come.

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Does "we all" refer to a few prebubescent LH fans? :confused:

Lewis will face Russel next year. Russel will take wins and lots of points from Hamilton, it will be tense in the team. Excited.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

Lewis will face Russel next year. Russel will take wins and lots of points from Hamilton, it will be tense in the team. Excited.

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Nah....

"George, its James..."

100%.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

Lewis will face Russel next year. Russel will take wins and lots of points from Hamilton, it will be tense in the team. Excited.

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This is one pairing that everyone would be watching with interest, l think. Hamilton returns bruised from a season that got away and George is pumped and excited to prove himself. This is almost like Alonso and Hamilton all over again. It certainly is great news for Verstappen.