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NETFLIX Schumacher has been released. I found it very enjoyable and touched even the controversial aspects and the self-reflection he had to do after Senna die. Also thought it had good depth as it also showed his personal side with his family.
Link to trailer below
https://youtu.be/OQs9ZtdZjY0
I watched it and it brought a tear to my eye, especially opening up on what he was like as a family man and as a child. It explains a lot of his demeanor throughout his racing career, and how he wasn't comfortable with all the attention that was afforded to him. It's really tragic what happened to him and hopefully we'll get to see him in the public eye again some time. Unfortunately, from what Corinna was saying I have my doubts this will ever happen.
I really enjoyed the documentary overall.
One thing I thought the Schumacher family may have been signaling whether intentionally or not - the NETFLIX documentary was closing out the
story on Michael, and opening up the book on Mick.
2nd thing - Michael played an instrumental part in helping Mercedes become the team they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
Huge! That's why I consider him the GOAT. Hamilton may be driving the car but he's bearing the fruits of Michael and Ross Brawns labour. The foundation of the current Mercedes team were laid ten years ago. He's instrumental in the two greatest periods of dominance in F1 history. No one else can say that and it's one record I believe Michael will hold onto forever.
I watched it a while back, and thought overall it was done fairly well. The background into his early year and continued dedication to the mechanical work and interaction with the crews was great to see.
Though always controversial through the years, one of the most well rounded and complete drivers ever to race, without a doubt. And through his career, he always seemed to enjoy and celebrate every win as if it was the first, always seemingly new to the thrill.
Also agreed that the input and experience of the MS/Brawn combo was huge to the Merc team. Though bested on track by Nico, he was at the time pretty much beyond the competitive racing years for the sport, and still did a lot for the team. So many great drives over the years, it's hard to keep track of the best ones.
As much as I like Hamilton and Senna, I can't think of driver that put in as many great drives as Schumacher did. How he brought the 1998 championship down to the last race in Japan or won 3 races with that heap in 1996 I'll never know. He raised the bar on fitness, redefined what it meant to work closely with an engineer and team. What Hamilton has contributed to the sport pales by comparison. They'll still be talking about Schumacher in 100 years time, not Hamilton.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
Schumacher = GOAT
No offence but GOAT doesn't apply or work in any sport that is mostly equipment based.. especially with varying spells of equipment dominance if you think WDC count actually means something. Case in point Vettel won 3 WDC's in a dominant car but has generally been not much greater than average since.
I also wish people would stop comparing drivers from the different era's which required very different skill sets.
I see Lewis as a great, Michael as a great and Ayrton as a great but the different era's required different skill sets, and so are largely incomparable... also, they are just the best of a tiny, tiny bunch of extremely fortunate kids.
I don't understand all this hero worship stuff that some of you seem to suffer from.
To put things into perspective, if F1 was purely talent based like some other sports and accessible to the whole worlds population, there is probably a fairly high chance that none of the current drivers would have made it onto the grid.
Quite true. I've never understood the arguments and really none of them won multiple WDC's in crap cars, and nobody ever will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
The most we can judge directly is against the same team... and even that gets skewed quite a bit from time to time.
All the drivers with the big records were fortunate enough to end up on a dominant team at one point or another, and that is how their records kept climbing. That being said, there has been a lot of talent through the F1 field over time, and the drivers raised the bar quite a bit over the years. As for drivers vs the era they raced in, a totally different game over the years. As more tech creeped in, there was a lot more brain power vs just straight up driving skill. The new cars are fairly complex with a lot of things to keep track of, but I'm not sure the drivers that came up through the current era could take earlier cars to the pace they were pushed to either.
But no matter what.... people will still look for the best. I'd definitely include Schumacher up in the list, and probably within the top 3. But the numbers alone don't add up to great drivers IMHO.
I totally agree, my post wasn't a dig at any of these champions at all. I rate them all highly but I could never single one out over the others, nor would it be right and fair to even attempt that for the reasons given.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
Yes, that could probably also work both ways with earlier drivers struggling to cope (at least initially) with the huge multi tasking workload required by the current cars. I could be wrong but I imagine they wouldn't be over enamoured with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
I know Senna much preferred simplicity and felt that way when the cars started getting far more complex close to the end.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
You assume the Mercedes car remained the same since the Schumacher years. The regulations for subsequent years after Schumacher left Mercedes meant Rosberg and Hamilton had to help redefine the car for subsequent regulations. So it would be grossly unfair to attribute all of Mercedes subsequent improvements to Schumacher alone. But that is not to say he was not instrumental in steering Mercedes in the right direction in their early days. The Mercedes was not a dominant car until the engine changed to the hybrid format. Most of Mercedes early strength was in their engine and Redbull still had the best chassis but underpowered Renault engines. Most of the progress on the Mercedes chassis happened after Schumacher and Ross Brawn had left. It took three seasons into the hybrid era before Mercedes got their cornering speed sorted. By 2018, they were just as fast as Redbull through the twisties.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I am a huge fan of Schumacher mind you. On who is the GOAT in F1, is an open debate. But one thing is certain, it is jointly shared between Schumacher and Hamilton at the moment. With Hamilton marginally ahead on records. How they accomplished their title wins is quite similar to a large extent. Hence, it is very much a matter of personal preference at the moment.
You make a very valid point. But l would add those past drivers may find current cars a challenge also. The Playstation generation of drivers would certainly have an edge on them. And yes, those F1 cars of old without power steering were very physical to drive. The slight stature of the PlayStation generation of drivers would suggest that they may struggle against those drivers of past generations in their cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
We can only really do a relative comparison of the greatness of drivers in their respective eras. It comes down to accomplishments. Multiple world champions of seven race seasons cannot be fairly compared to multiple champions of 22 race seasons. Though the car has got much easier to drive compared to the car of past eras. We only have records to go with really. On that front, we cannot dispute Hamilton's clear superiority. But only marginal to Schumacher, hence l am more inclined to call both men the joint GOATs of F1.
I agree with most of your arguments. But unfortunately disagree with the last part of your argument. The crop of racing drivers that make it onto the F1 grid, have come through various levels of fierce junior racing series where only highly talented drivers at these junior series make it through the ranks to be selected to have a seat in F1. From the very tough Go Kart series where so many really talented drivers do not make it through, to the various junior feeder series where a great many talented drivers do not make it to F1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Just check out this go kart race to appreciate the level of talent that F1 drivers have to come through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgpS4kx88s
Getting into F1 is so incredibly hard. It takes great talent or billionaire dads to get into F1. For those that come from humble backgrounds, it has taken them immense sacrifices to land an F1 drive. These sorts of drivers are without any doubt the best drivers all the junior racing series has to offer. At any time, they represent the best drivers in the world. To dismiss their life journeys and sacrifices, dishonour them.
That said, there is always some doubt that other drivers in the grid in less dominant cars may have achieved the same things, given the chance in a dominant car. On the current grid, Russell or Leclerc or Norris or Gasly or Sainz in a Mercedes for instance. I remember us saying the same thing of Bottas in the Williams years ago. And how he has found Hamilton such a challenge with his opportunity.
Hence, to be great in F1 is not a fluke. I also do not think Vettel is representative of all multiple champions. Clearly, four consecutive title wins have burnt him out. The hunger of his early years in no longer there. That is not to suggest that he is an ordinary driver by any means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
I know how much of a hero Hamilton is too you so I didn't expect you to agree and that's fine.
No matter which way you try to look at it, it is still a very rich mans sport, there is just no escaping that fact. Even if a relatively poor kid such as Lewis was good enough to shine brighter than the <1% of the worlds millionaires sons population with their huge financial advantage of having the very best of equipment, he still only shone brighter than a tiny, tiny percentage of rich kids.
Compare that to any purely athletics based sport that is not wealth/equipment based and the talent pool size of many hundreds of times the size to stand out in, to get recognised, it is just not comparable. Another layer on top of that is the being in the right car.. the dominant car at the right time aspect and how long that dominant spell is, that weakens any WDC winners achievements even further in my eyes.
There have been some great drivers in F1 over the years but I just cant look at any of them in quite the same way that some of you do, for that reason.
Your comment is not aimed at Hamilton specifically but all F1 champions. Any motor racing series is also broadly in the crosshairs of your comment. So you are essentially saying all motorsport is crap. And all drivers in those series are privileged few in very limited seats for each of those series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
I think you should stop a moment and think about what you are saying.
Those are facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Even at the amateur levels of most motorsport, money is always a factor. Those who do it just for fun often have family and friends that help support them, and even then it can reach a point of spreading people thin very quickly.
Anyone who has ever raced in any organized motorsport would probably agree.
What we get to watch are the fortunate few that had a support system that often sacrificed a great deal to give them a shot at it. And being that competition for open wheeled series generally starts at very young ages, the parents are often working their tails off to give their kids a chance at doing something they enjoy. For every one driver we consider great, there are probably dozens and dozens more that would have been just as good if they had the opportunity. That is no dishonor or disrespect to anyone, it's the reality of motor racing.
I totally agree with you. Motorsport is based on equipment that is usually not cheap. At the junior levels of racing, it is a Darwinian environment where only the fittest survive. It is not an easy environment that gives all and sundry a chance to prove themselves. It is an environment that demands financial commitment, dedication to improvement and determination to succeed. Of the many that actually step up to partake in the junior formulas and feeder series, only a very small few actually progress into the higher formulas. As they have to compete with the best from similar series from other nations for seats in the higher formulas. It is a very tough progression that sees some very talented drivers fall to the wayside at every progression stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
This is common to all equipment based sport, from bicycle racing to motorbike racing to canoe racing to horse racing to yacht racing etc.
Apart from the billionaire sons drivers, every driver you see on the F1 grid has excelled through all of the progression stages leading up to F1 on the merit of their extraordinary talents. They are essentially the best all the junior series around the world have to produce. And these F1 places are only available to a few.
The system is as it is to ensure only the very best reaches the very pinnacle of motorsport. To have a chance to be in this glorious few, everyone is invited to take the various test and tribulations to qualify to be in F1. Hence, it is pointless saying there may be people out there that may be better. This an equipment sport. They have to go through the system to prove they are good enough for a start. And then show they are better against the crop of f1 drivers they have to compete with.
Firstly they have to raise funds to go kart racing to show they have what it takes. It is expensive, but that is the way it is. You have to find funds to prove your worth. This is the reason why Hamilton is such a wonderful success story. It will probably be a long time before we see another black driver on the F1 grid. When they do, they usually grab the opportunity with both hands and produce something sensational.
Mercedes start working on their 2014 car in 2011 so Schumacher was involved in that car, however, the structure put in place by Ross Brawn and Schumacher at the time largely remains to this day. I disagree that Hamilton and Schumacher are comparable in this aspect. Schumacher had to work a lot harder for his success than Hamilton did. Hamilton came into a team in 2013 where the structural foundations required to spring them to 7 World Championships were largely in place and a car for 2014 that was well on its way to completion. In 1996 Schumacher came into a Ferrari team that was a heap and with a donkey car managed to win 3 races. Hamilton has never impressed me the way Schumacher did. He managed to win a race in 2013 while his teammate won 3 and in 2011 was soundly beaten by Jenson. This didn't happen to Schumacher in his prime. While there is no doubt Hamilton walks with the Greats of the sport he is not in my top 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Like l said, it was a personal perspective you took. Objectively, Hamilton is easily in the top five, even the top three.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
On the Mercedes, by 2013 the Mercedes car was showing signs of marked improvement in the chassis. But was still inferior to the Redbull, Ferrari and Mclaren. The car was by no means completely refined by the time Hamilton joined Mercedes. It could not have been as the engine of the 2014 regulations was quite different from the 2013 engine. Hence the 2014 chassis had to be significantly different from the pre-2014 chassis. i.e. making room for the electric power unit, changes to cooling requirements of the engine and structure changes introduced by the 2014 regulations implied the 2014 car was quite different to the cars that Schumacher drove for Mercedes.
It is interesting you are quoting mostly irrelevant periods of Hamilton's career development. His period of distractions from girlfriends etc. Also, you do not accommodate the fact that the journey of both men took completely different paths. While Schumacher's path was via Benetton where he won his first two titles and swiftly moved to Ferrari where he won five more. Hamilton won his first at Mclaren that soon after progressively depreciated in performance to what became Hamilton's lean years.
We can selectively pick reasons for why one is better than the other depending on who you personally favour. I think they are both equally brilliant and in my mind the joint GOAT of F1. The lovely thing about that is it gives everyone a choice of GOAT.
I don't really get your point here as there was parallel development going on between Mercedes 2014 and 2013 car. Mercedes never really put huge development into 2013. Hamilton doesn't receive a get out of jail card just because he has girlfriends. Schumacher also had a girlfriend, turned wife and then kids and his focus never swayed. He was beaten by Button, end of. In 2016 he gets a get out of jail card because it was clearly reliability which cost him the world title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
We'll have to agree to differ. I really don't think Hamilton is and has ever been on the same level as Schumacher. Hamilton showed flashes of brilliance here and there but nothing compared to what Schumacher was able to do on a consistent basis. It's hard to even begin to count the number of races Schumacher won out of sheer brilliance throughout the years in an inferior car. Hamilton did this as well from time to time just not nearly as often.
What makes hamilton stand out to me as one of the greatest of all times is not his 6 titles with mercedes, but his very first year with mclaren in 2007.
Coming into the sport as a rookie and ending equal to alonso, who is considered one of the best drivers of the last 2 decades and who had just won the 2 previous championships.
Missing the title by only 1 point in his rookie year, and winning it in his second.
That was an extraordinary achievement, far more than winning titles with a car that was a second faster than all the rest.
Yes, much like this 2021 car, Mercedes was putting together the car for the hybrid regulations of 2014 in parallel to the 2013 car. Since they had signed Hamilton in 2013, Schumacher would have ceased to be involved in the 2014 car. The point l am making is, you cannot attribute all of Mercedes successful cars since 2014 to Schumacher. Like Rosberg, Schumacher contributed to developing the Mercedes platform. You go on as if he solely, was responsible for Mercedes success.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Some would like one of the two GOATs for personal reasons. I personally like both.
If I thought all motorsport was crap, I wouldn't watch it so that is obviously not the case. I love driving, I used to race online, enjoy good racing and the spectacle rather than falling into a driver fan camp like you have.. which I feel affects peoples reasoning, logic and objectivity quite substantially when chatting about F1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
We are obviously different types of fans, I'm just a general motorsport/F1 fan with no particular favourite driver or team but I do tend to back an underdog and watching fresh young talent coming through and doing well pleases me more than a single driver or team totally dominating.
I don't understand how some can gravitate towards a single driver and declare him the best ever, a GOAT etc I find that unfathomable and quite bizarre considering its not a Spec series.
I suspect my lack of reverence comes from racing online against phenomenally quick guys online on a new track and in a new car, being a couple of seconds off the pace even after a couple of hours in despite it feeling and thinking their pace was incredible, world class that they must be aliens but just plugging away and after a spending many more hours (20-30+) finding small chunks here and there through different lines and techniques etc, also optimising car setup and studying them closely I was eventually able to be competitive and be just as quick as they were.
Like their real life counterparts, they are all just mere mortals like you and I and I don't think not looking up to them in reverence is disrespectful.. or has 'dishonoured' them as you put it although I think I understand why you might see it that way.
Although the current cars are the fastest ever, I still find the V10 era battles (ie Schumacher and Alonso) far more spectacular and exciting to watch than even what we have had this year between Lewis than Max. No disrespect to either of them, I guess I'm just still have a big soft spot for the NA soundtrack. :s
You disappointingly fail to look at peoples comments without taking a defensive stance. slinging insults is not dialogue but ineptitude. Appreciating a driver for his talent is not necessarily joining a fan club. I find your attitude very juvenile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
A defensive stance is defending your POV or stance in a discussion where someone disagrees with you, its perfectly normal, everyone does it, yourself included. In fact you just did it in your own reply just there.
Insults? You disagreed with me but then in your very next post totally agreed with Airshifter who had said pretty much the exact same thing... so unless you have completely changed your mind and actually now also agree with me, you are not being objective, rational or making a whole lot of sense.
I'm sorry you have taken my comments and observations that way but hey ho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Agree on both counts. Schumacher won in a car that wasn't up to winning standards at the time, and built up a team around him to reach the point of having the dominant car. And has been pointed out by TBK, went on to help develop the car that became the dominant Merc.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Lewis hanging with Alonso was a much harder task than what he has done in recent years in the Merc. The Merc combination was just so dominant that it was a matter of being there at that point, not having to fight hard. Similar happened at the dominant years for Ferrari and Schumacher, the primary difference being that he joined when the team was a mess.
As for the first part... exactly. Just like many other professions they work hard to get to the top, but they are just people still. In my younger years before the fans became more fanatical and people were kept from them more I got to meet a number of high level motocross and motorcycle riders, as well as some of the big Baja racers. Back then they didn't need security due to swarms of people mobbing them, and some were fairly laid back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
As for hybrid era vs the old screamers, there was noting like the soundtrack of the V10 and V8 cars. Recently it also hit me that it changed the way racers race as well. With the initial hybrid era the limited extra power boost started it, and even now it influences the race pace. Often drivers use that extra power to attack, or defend. If you get two savvy drivers with close equipment, often there are laps of hard attack and defend, a slower lap to get batteries back up to full, then rinse and repeat. Before the hybrids, that breathing room didn't exist. A full on attack might last for many laps.
And that is where MS was at his best, full on attack or defend mode. Barring a few uncharacteristic mistakes, he could do either for a full race it seemed.
I did not call you names. But you have persistently referred to me as a fan club member or something of that nature. I find that very insulting. Also, you could have spent a little more time addressing my point in my reply to you instead. Please go back and read my initial response to your post with a cool head. You would find l agreed with you on some points and disagreed on others. Do you prefer l agree with everything you post? There is no need to start calling people fanboy etc, it is so juvenile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
How you presented your views were different to how Airshifter presented his. I addressed certain aspects of your post. And addressed certain aspects of Airshifter's post. These aspects are different between both of your posts.
You called him inept and juvenile , after he had just apologized .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Baggie to the rescue!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
What l said, simply describes accurately his conduct. Even you do not stupe to calling people Fanboy, fan club member etc. This is not kindergarten.
Micheal Schumacher was special because he established himself as a championship material in the presence of some of the finest racers in F1 history. Racing against World champions like Senna, Prost, Mansell etc and beating them. He is without a doubt a GOAT of F1.
I simply pointed out that you had started the quoted post with saying you did not call him names when you clearly had done exactly that .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Read that post again and take some of your own advice , please .
I actually said fan camp which I didn't think would be offensive to you. Surely you recognise that you are firmly in the Lewis Camp, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
I avoided the fanboy term to avoid offending you only to be told off for insulting you whilst insulting me. Do as I say, not as I do?
Anyway, its weird that you don't see yourself as, or dislike being seen as, a Lewis fanboy (not that I said that) but why would you find it offensive if I had? If you prefer the term Superfan or hardcore fan instead of being in the Lewis camp, I'll try to remember and use one of these terms instead in future.
Grow up, buddy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
You have that opinion because there are more unfair comments aimed at Hamilton on this forum than on any other driver. I do exactly the same for Perez, Schumacher, Vettel etc when unfair comments or inaccurate comments are made against them. I am yet to hear anyone call me a Perez fanboy or Vettel fanboy.
And l equally criticize them when they mess up. That is the way it should be.
The dialogue with Zico started at post #10. Please, start reading from there and see if your comment is really warranted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
So you are saying you are not specifically a Lewis fan then? That's incredible... with your multitude of gushing GOAT etc Lewis posts, I'm not sure how I ever came to that conclusion. Silly me.
nitro is not a hamilton fan, he is a fanboy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
you can talk with him pretty reasonably about pretty much anything, just not about hamilton.
I have done so , and , yes , it is well warranted .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
You said you hadn't , but had clearly called him names .
Simply put , you lied .
That is what I had called out .
Nothing else .
Let's clear something else up .
Are you a fan of Lewis ?
Is it ok to call you a Hamilton fan ?
This is a pretty grey area we have here , and we should make this clear right now .
How do you wish to be addressed so in future we may avoid this kind of irritating exchange ?
Too many times we have flown off into the weeds over this .
Walking on eggs is tiring , and I'm sick of it .
Ok let us leave it at that. I don't care much for labelling. I have not labelled anyone. Labelling is how prejudice work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Again , you lie .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
I'm sick of that , too .
An interesting take from Toto, found in my news feed on my phone. Though I will admit I'm impressed that he would make such a statement, I'm not sure Lewis would feel the same way. Then again, at this point he has shown how invested he is with Lewis as his driver.
https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1...er-toto-wolff/
Such a strong statement about MS when Lewis is within days of possibly beating the WDC record says quite a lot about how talented he feels MS is.