Fully electric rally cars will come in some shape or form. Lets collect the development prosess, and discussions in this thread.
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Fully electric rally cars will come in some shape or form. Lets collect the development prosess, and discussions in this thread.
Hayden Paddon's Hyundai Kona EV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMwLKqYtMU
Raimund Baumschlager's Skoda Fabia
https://vimeo.com/514700231
Opel Corsa E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn3MQ0g6BGo
Some more videos and foto galleries of the Kreisel RE-X1 - Raimund Baumschlager:
Galleries:
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_eis_...e-x1_0221.html
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_scho...e-x1_0221.html
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_test...enland_21.html
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_entw...sel_re-x1.html
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_entw...sel_re-x1.html
Videos:
https://vimeo.com/509174103
https://vimeo.com/501023152
https://vimeo.com/514700231
https://vimeo.com/494645589
Note: There is a sound module by Remus in development for the car
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr180221/1.jpg
Gallery Skoda Kreisel RE-X1 full electric - gravel test: http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_brr_...mschlager.html
Video: https://vimeo.com/563430350
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr150621/1.jpg
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr150621/2.jpghttp://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr150621/3.jpghttp://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr150621/5.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3db...l=PMRallyeVids
First action from the e-Corsa series in Germany. Remember that these are the equivalent of Rally5/R1 cars, they're not meant to be as spectacular as WRC or Rally2/R5.
hilariousQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
The Fabia is fast. Sounds still sucks, but no complains about the other elements of the car :)
As you say for comparison you'd need Rally5/R2 car, I don't even remember ever seeing one tbh, lowest class I ever saw for more than one corner is R2.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Anyway I think the concept of the car is kinda flawed. Why build an electric car that tries to be the same as petrol one? It could easily have more power/acceleration (say 50%) while keeping similar complexity. (Just like the electric "R5" Fabia has more power than the R5)
The danger of course is a "cheap" car with simple suspension that is too fast for it, leading to dangerous crashes (N4 comes to mind). This could maybe be limited by limiting when the power is delivered.
Two weeks ago I went to a rally with my son after more than a year. He plays rally on computer, sometimes watches rally online with me and has driven in noisy "performance" cars before.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartijnS
After R5s a 208 Rally2 came... son's reactions:
"Daddy why can't they make electric rally cars so they don't make so much noise?" (holding his ears)
No heritage, no knowledge, no history experience, no need to have as a benchmark...
Funnily enough, some weeks ago I took my 12 and 7 year old nephew's to Rally de Portugal, they enjoyed it massively. Their number 1 complaint? The wait times and the lack of noise from the cars �� .Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Did you notice that the lesson learned is actually the same as in my case?Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
Namely:
What is "normal" (rally) car sound, depends entirely on what you are used to.
I feel noise is one of the biggest reasons rallying is such a spectacle - to fans who regularly attend. Hearing cars echoing for miles away in the forest/ countryside makes the sport for me and millions of rally fans around the world. The IRC became huge because of those screaming s2000s compared to the group Ns (even though in visual speed, there wasn't much difference at times). The WRC has been amazing to watch stageside since 2017.
Electric can only work if they come up with a proper artificial sound to add to it. Otherwise fans on the stages will diminish. I guarantee you.
I used to "moan" as a young wee boy about how loud air shows were, or listening to old metros and the like screaming through forest rallies. But the noise and thrill is what always stuck with me and pulled me back. That wow factor combined with the speed.
I'm not absolutely against Electric, but we need a sound (even if it is fake). Just make it sort of realistic if that's the direction we have to end up going years down the line.
I agree that there needs to be some (amplified) sound. I don't think it should be "petrol engine imitation" though, but that's not a main point.
Stageside the sound is important also for the reasons you list but for Online/TV viewers the magnitude doesn't matter at all, if it's too loud it gets muted and if its too low it gets amplified, heli pictures have no sound at all
For WRC in the future the majority of viewers will come from online/tv and not from stageside (if it doesn't already atm).
Therefore the sound is much more important for "local" national rallies than it is for WRC. Which is why for example the electric Corsa is imo a bad idea, while the Fabia which already has some sound amplification afaik is better.
But in the end rallying is attractive due to 3 things:
1. Cars look same as normal cars (and "sound" similar, so if most cars are electric hearing petrol cars will be strange and the other way around)
2. Stages are on normal roads that people can relate to
3. Cars compete for time not for "sound points" or "sideways points"
Again you write this as if your speaking for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
I would be able to give you several examples of friends of mine, casual fans, and they would give the Following reasons why they find the sport somewhat attractive:
1. On the limit driving, sideways, close to walls.
2. Spectacular sounds.
3. Crazy scenery.
You do know that most fans barely look at the standings and check stage times religiously?
im not sure if you mean this seriously or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
i dont know anybody from my close relatives and friends who is interested in rally because of those reasons.
its the reasons what Francis44 brought out, especially reason nr.1
Agree 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
The things that I wrote is what differentiates rally from other motorsports .Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
The things you wrote can be found in multiple different motorsports, sometimes also together. Rallycross is obviously the closest. But for example hillclimbs offer pretty spectacular driving with sometimes crazy cars at insane speeds. (provided you like tarmac)
But off course in order for my list of 3 things to work it has to be spectacular to watch, but a lot of other motorsports are spectacular to watch. In fact, most are in a way, otherwise nobody would watch them.
With regards to stagetimes I also don't look at them when I am stageside, specially when it's some local rally. Online it's something else, as claimed before majority of WRC fans watch online/tv.
Yep you follow every rally Tanak does in detail to cheer how he went sideways through the corner. Makes one wonder why you get upset when he doesn't win though...Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
what this has to do with me following Tänak and how he went through the corner? lol
i was talking about the bigger picture why other people like and follow this sport
Rallying is great because it can be loved for several reasons. I would say the opposite ends are following results of an events live through ewrc-results without seeing any visuals or spectating live without knowing the results. I've done both during the last month. Or even during the last week. Then you have car enthusiasts, route enthusiasts, stats enthusiasts, history enthusiasts, people who just want to hear engines roar, people who just want to get adrenaline running, people who like to analyze driving performances and styles through what they see, people who like the spectating experience of going into the nature and meeting people etc or people who go to a rally like a rock festival, enjoying the atmosphere more than the sport itself. Or any combination of these. It's a versatile sport and we shouldn't consider anyone better than the other.
If you take the sound off, it's one aspect. It may be the most important one for someone, and that person might move to following other motorsports, where combustion engines are still used.
You wrote you don't know anybody who is interested in rally due to stagetimes (among other things). So either you don't know yourself or you are over-simplifying things. I'd say the latter is correct, so I responded on same level.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
I was also talking about the bigger picture and mentioned what differentiates rally from other (motor)sports. This you skipped (twice now) for one-line wisdoms.
To go back from trolling:
- I do claim that rallies taking part on normal roads behind people's houses is how most people get to know rally in the first place.
- Go-kart competition or the mentioned hillclimbs can also take place on normal roads, but since the "cars" are relatively alien it's much harder to relate to for fans (and manus) and is less popular. My claim following this is that if cars that people drive daily run on petrol, electric feels and looks alien, but similarly when people drive electric cars, petrol cars will start to look alien (especially to new fans)
- Without stagetimes there would be no "on the limit" driving, could still be spectacular though. When you (as a more interested fan) are not at a rally and there is no live vid you still follow stagetimes.
why every answer is always trolling to you?
i see you have said this to me in the past and also to other members like dimviii as well. The fact that we just answer shortly and express our opinions differently doesnt mean its trolling.
i would say in this case you started trolling with your Tänak example addressed to me.
the only thing i agree from your examples is stage times, thats indeed why many people follow the sport.
But from MY experience (going to rallies, talking to peeople etc), im still gonna say that sideways on the limit driving is nr.1 reason why people get attracted to this sport. The rest comes after that.
JUST MY OPINION
Probably, but then you can ask why they like rally and not rallycross or speedway or drifting instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Rallying is a very complicated sport to explain to someone, I've noticed it now that my four year old kid is starting to ask questions. On circuit racing it's more straightforward, the first car which completes the number of laps is the winner.
This is an important point. Not yet, since electric cars are still in the minority, but it could be already different in ten years.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Which brings us back to what a I posted few pages back.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Here 1/3 to 1/2 of the cars you see on the road are electric, and notably majority of "new and cool" cars on the road are. Which is likely why my son asked why aren't any of those rallycars on the stage electric.
Other than his opinion is trolling or false..Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
If the noise is too big, then there are noise cancelling headphones or earplugs available..
It's not the sound in itself that attracts people, it's the sense of speed that is created by the sound.
Its very difficult to judge the speed of a car just visually. A low rev megane r4 always looks slow because it sounds like a tractor, while a high revving s1600 car may be slower but looks a lot faster.
Also, the sound alows you to hear what a driver is doing. Is he keeping his foot down or is he lifting, is he breaking early or late. Is he driving clean or is he pushing.
Therefore if they actually want people to come and watch electric cars race, they will need a way to create sound that indicates how much throttle the drivers applies.
Yes, but does the sense of speed created by sound come from "knowing/expecting" that more sound=more speed? I would expect so.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
"By experience" we "know" that more engine sound=faster. If our experience from early on is different, maybe we won't get that association at all. This is what I thought when my son wondered why the cars are noisy (and slow, as it was an R2) instead of "silent" and fast. For me it was a bit of a revelation moment. Precisely because he does not have that "sound=speed" association from before, maybe he doesn't mind less sound.
Totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
The electric Fabia guys say that they somehow tried it and it seems to show on the last vid.
But for me it's not distinct enough yet. Lifting is ok, but hard to say how much throttle he has and braking is weird.
It's not so much "more" sound. Just making it louder dus not much improve the impression of speed. A tractor still sound like a tractor, no matter how loud you make it. Although loud sounds do create stress and thus adrenaline though.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Its more about high revs, about changes in the intensity of the sound. Its about not being monotonous.
Its just like music, you can play mozart as loud as you want but it still doesn't make you jump up and down.
Having the opportunity to follow about 15 testdays with the Skoda Kreisel RE-X1 on all surfaces until now I can only report from my side that all the fuss about the missing / unusual sound is just a matter of being used to the common.
It was strange at the beginning, but after a suprisingly short time you get used to it. Now I already like the futuristic sound.
You cannot judge from the videos alone, the live impression is different. But it looks like a rally car, it drives like a car and its absolutely stunning to see how it envolves.
I have absolutely no fear about the future of our sport if it brings something in this direction in some years.
Exactly, it's not worse, it's different. Perhaps in some years somebody will find a way to make a fully sustainable, no caveat fuel to keep ICE engines alive in some way, shape or form, but should rally go electric it'll just be a matter of getting used to the new sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by hari
I'm in the minority, surely, that enjoyed Formula E's futuristic wooshing sound both times I saw them in person. I wouldn't dislike an electric rally car to have an amplified electric noise, for instance; and cars like Hayden Paddon's Kona EV already have a lot of electric whine noise, which sounds cool.
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Fabia R5 vs Electric Fabia:
https://youtu.be/icx6PWyHOlo
Car looks damn quick in a straight line at least.
If this car and othera can compete on a 'normal' rally in a normal way, I suppose it won't be long until the FIA introduce a 'Rally2e' class or something along those lines.
I think I heard about 50 stage km range and charging times were like 20 mins (not sure how big % range), so probably one charging spot per section.
Good idea to "tune it" to about same speed as R5, obviously it will be hard to make it exactly the same.
For a class to work I'd say you need more manufacturers, Østberg mentioned Citroen working on a similar car at the start of the year.
If you do that there need to be "unexploitable" rules.
Power control shouldn't be so hard, something based on limiting the power going from batteries (similar to restrictor limiting airflow).
"Traction control", might be more difficult. Since there is no mechanical connection between front and rear there is electronic "center diff" already included. How can that be controlled and changes limited? Homologated code?
How power is controlled and checked, also a safety video on here
https://youtu.be/vc7QzVzNtsg
CC for subtitles
Baumschlager said in an interview for ewrc that the car had 1368 kg, i.e. 170 kg more than R5. It has 345 Hp in rally mode and 700 Hp in RX mode. If I understood right they count with 5-7 minutes of charging between each stage in Austrian championship.
Nah, no subtitles needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
Stohl has great "hardcore" Austrian accent btw.
I think yesterday it was the first rally for the electric Skoda of Baumschlager. The car is definitely slower than R5s despite the huge torque. He finished 2':47'' behind the leader, which is not what Baumschlager does when he is competing with an R5.
However, it would be interesting to know how they managed to recharge it in a rally that had as much as eight SS in one day. Is it true that they had one fast recharger after each stage?
The car can be charged in the servicepark and when refueling for other cars is allowed on the liasion (like Mitsubishis with the small tank etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
Here is the itinerary of Rally Weiz: http://www.rallye-weiz.at/2021/DOK/zeitplan.pdf
There was absolutely no problem with the distances at Rallye Weiz with a lot of buffer.
The premiere of the Skoda Kreisel RE-X1 was a big success. Remember it was the first rally of such a kind of car and the stages of Rallye Weiz with a lot of downhill sections did not suit the car with the heavier weight. The progress in the next months / years will be very interesting to follow.
It must be very hard to find an accurate equivalence with the power vs. the R5 as the advantage of extra power vs. disadvantage of the extra weight will vary from rally to rally.
Is this the first 'real rally' for an electric rally car or does Paddon compete amongst the main field with his too?