Format of the WRC rallies

We had a bit of discussion about this in the Citroen thread but let's move the discussion over here

The point was that Ogier suggested that rallies should be shortened to two days (of course, Ogier wants more time with his family) but keeping the stage kilometres at 300 where they are now. This could be doable, by having tighter and longer days of rallying, and like Ogier says, this would increase the endurance element slightly.

My suggestion would be to attempt something like this, to cut one day of the rally week.

FRIDAY
Morning - Shakedown
Afternoon - Ceremonial start
Evening - Opening super special, one loop of stages

SATURDAY
Three loops of stages instead of two.

SUNDAY
As it is now.

This way we would simply move half of the Friday stage kilometres onto Saturday. Of course, this would lead into problems like repeated stages would have to be driven on two different days or then implement something like in Finland 2017 where you repeat a stage within a loop instead of over two loops (ie you drive 2-3 stages once, then do them again before going service). Timetable-wise there's also a challenge to cram that many stages into one day, but that would maybe put more emphasis on longer stages, as they are more efficient time-wise (ie it's quicker to drive a 45 km stage than three 15 km stages). This plan would also keep the opening super special on the evening and the ending of the rally on Sunday afternoon, and in addition all the action would happen on the weekend. For team members and spectators it would be one day less of traveling but with the same amount of action available.

How should WRC rallies evolve over the next years? (yeah, we know everyone wants 1000 km events with no repeated stages and overnight driving and return of old Safari etc but let's try to be realistic).

Absolutely a way to go further.

Maybe you could squeeze one more stage on Sunday, making Saturday slightly not so demanding timewise.
Sunday schedule should, if so, make possible for some sort of extented remote service.

Sunday could then be a bit mor exciting having a longer one off stage between the two others run twice.
Having same stage for two days shouldn´t be a problem. Everything is on sight for another 24h which to me as an non-expert, shouldn´t be that tricky.

I would fully support testing that kind of format. Another option could even be to start on Thursday, have a long Friday with majority of the stages and a Sunday-like Saturday, leaving Sunday for travelling back home (and the fans watching at home could genuinely relax on Sunday).

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Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

I would fully support testing that kind of format. Another option could even be to start on Thursday, have a long Friday with majority of the stages and a Sunday-like Saturday, leaving Sunday for travelling back home (and the fans watching at home could genuinely relax on Sunday).

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So it would be my version but moved ahead one day. I don't understand this logic. To be a spectator on location on your version, you would need off Wednesday for traveling, Thursday and Friday for spectaring, traveling back on Sunday and back to work on Monday. Three days off. On my version, you would have off Thursday for traveling, Friday for watching rally and Monday for traveling back. Three days off. What's the difference? (except that on my version you would need even less days off if you live near enough the event)

For All Live followers, on my version they would get more value for watching the long Saturday at home and the Friday stages in the evening after work instead of maybe missing out on the Friday stages during office hours.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

So it would be my version but moved ahead one day. I don't understand this logic.

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That's exactly the logic :D It was drawn from a perspective where weekends are valuated higher than weekdays. Don't know if anyone share's the view, but I personally would rather follow the rally (on-site or home) from Thursday evening to Saturday afternoon - having the rest of the weekend free (surely you would need to waste some of that time for travelling back home if you're on-site but anyway).

I work in Motorsport so my weekends are either working or competing, Can we not have the WRC on a Monday , Tuesday, Wednesday, See you can't please all the people all the Time :-)

I'd like both propositions here to show up. And some of todays style. And some proper 4 days rally. Maybe a rally that actually does it the old style, with the whole circus moving towns each day. So you actually travel through parts of a country.

Add in a Safari-style endurance rally as well, and you suddenly have many different styled rallies, which means the drivers and cars needs to handle even more different challenges. This will also give a more unique feel to each rally, as opposed to what we have today.

I wouldn't have a set format; I'd like to see a mix of formats - but obviously won't happen. With the limit on pitiful 300km, Endurance is no longer seen in the WRC - and more's the pity.

However, I think the current Sunday's are a damp squib; 40-50km of stages - I ride more on my leisurely Sunday bike ride. If you want a Sunday, then make the most of it; have 70-85km. I'd also like to see them try finishing some events on a Saturday night; Saturday night motorsport could be a good addition on some events...are RBMH/WRC Promoter brave enough to experiment? I think not.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

My suggestion would be to attempt something like this, to cut one day of the rally week.

FRIDAY
Morning - Shakedown
Afternoon - Ceremonial start
Evening - Opening super special, one loop of stages

SATURDAY
Three loops of stages instead of two.

SUNDAY
As it is now.

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I'm afraid this looks more like a day and a half, rather than 2 days of rally. In fact in the current format most of them effectively are 2 days with serious competition, often Sundays are down to Sunday cruising mode and the only competition being the PS.

I like the idea of 3 loops on Saturday though, with last ones being 1-2 night stages (with a night stage also on Friday, can give the flavor of the old rallies). 3 loops give some more options, than just copy-paste the stages in the loop. They can be rotating between the loops.

Repeating stages on 2 days is probably the thing organizers might not be easy to agree with, that would mean the same resources allocated for more than 1 day, closed roads, etc.

From spectators point of view, at the location or at home, not better. At location seeing even less stages, not enough time to look around, enjoy local culture and buy stuff (bad for sponsors, organizing country/city). At home, well, Friday evening gone, whole Saturday gone and half of Sunday gone...no time for hobbies (apart for rally ofc :D), resting from workdays, going out, doing something at home (cleaning, building etc). A bit longer Friday (most of the time ends around 16-19 in Europe), Saturday starting later with some night-stages, ending the same time and Sunday as it is...not ideal, but i would like it. Much easier in winter, early spring and late autumn.

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

If you want a Sunday, then make the most of it; have 70-85km.

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That's the missing part from my post above.

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

Sundays are down to Sunday cruising mode and the only competition being the PS.

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Pardon my French but this is bullshit. Basically all ralles from Sardegna onwards this year had crazy battles for seconds and/or carnage throughout the Sunday stages. Especially Sardegna, Wales and Catalunya, some of the most exciting rally finales ever? Although, I'm not saying it couldn't have been better by being longer, but even this way it was a good show.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

Pardon my French but this is bullshit. Basically all ralles from Sardegna onwards this year had crazy battles for seconds and/or carnage throughout the Sunday stages. Especially Sardegna, Wales and Catalunya, some of the most exciting rally finales ever? Although, I'm not saying it couldn't have been better by being longer, but even this way it was a good show.

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You didn't quite the word "often" from my post. And yes this year provided more of a spectacle on Sunday, but that was mostly Ogier being in the role of catching up. I'm not sure we'll see this every season. 2018 was just an exception.

BTW when You slam some post with strong words, consider all the meaning in it;)

2017 was the same in regards of 3. day, pretty much on every event. I did some research and posted it here last year, but don`t have time to search for it now...anyway, 1.RMC: Tänak down on cylinders, falling from 2. to 3., last stage half done, he has almost fallen to fifth, but drives the second half insanely(!) well and holds on to his position. 2. Sweden: Latvala leading, both Tänak and Ogier behind just a few seconds. 3. Rally Mexico...Meeke`s carpark trip is in everyones memory for a looong time i believe, 4. Rally Argentina: Neuville vs Evans 0.1s in the end, 5. Rally Poland, Tänak crashing out in an intense fight with Neuville for P1...there was more and even more, if we look at places behind TOP 1.

There is a weak point in all the above concepts (including mine), current starting order rules.

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

There is a weak point in all the above concepts (including mine), current starting order rules.

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Best idea would be some sort of qualifying stage maybe third run of shakedowns results set the road order

Or average of 3 runs, altering the starting position.

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Originally Posted by Tarmop

2017 was the same in regards of 3. day, pretty much on every event. I did some research and posted it here last year, but don`t have time to search for it now...anyway, 1.RMC: Tänak down on cylinders, falling from 2. to 3., last stage half done, he has almost fallen to fifth, but drives the second half insanely(!) well and holds on to his position. 2. Sweden: Latvala leading, both Tänak and Ogier behind just a few seconds. 3. Rally Mexico...Meeke`s carpark trip is in everyones memory for a looong time i believe, 4. Rally Argentina: Neuville vs Evans 0.1s in the end, 5. Rally Poland, Tänak crashing out in an intense fight with Neuville for P1...there was more and even more, if we look at places behind TOP 1.

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Yeah, You're right, there has been many. All I remember are Argentina '17 & Sardegna '18, both won by Neuville:eek: (this is very bad for my pseudo french spiritual condition, meditate on this I will). I don't qualify as a Rally fan do I, don't remember much of statistics and so on... I only watch rally last 15 years just to see the Finns humiliation by two frenchies, ouch.

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Originally Posted by able1

Best idea would be some sort of qualifying stage maybe third run of shakedowns results set the road order

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I always support the idea of fair play. Thumbs up.

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Originally Posted by able1

Best idea would be some sort of qualifying stage maybe third run of shakedowns results set the road order

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Gives advantage to drivers who can memorise a short stage really well rather than those who can read the road well the first time though. Less rally and more rallysprint, isn't there enough repeating the same stages in WRC already? I'd rather see more new stages than see who has memorised an old stage best after driving it 50 times in their career.

Road order advantage/disadvantage usually seems to balance out reasonably even over a season and often depends more on weather than anything else, where is the unfairness there? Is it just because certain drivers whinge whenever it doesn't give them an advantage?

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Originally Posted by GravelBen

Gives advantage to drivers who can memorise a short stage really well rather than those who can read the road well the first time though. Less rally and more rallysprint, isn't there enough repeating the same stages in WRC already? I'd rather see more new stages than see who has memorised an old stage best after driving it 50 times in their career.

Road order advantage/disadvantage usually seems to balance out reasonably even over a season and often depends more on weather than anything else, where is the unfairness there? Is it just because certain drivers whinge whenever it doesn't give them an advantage?

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In some rallies (like sweden and turkey and some other) are really unfair for first cars on the road. Winning in Monte Carlo = having no chance in sweden due to road order.

There is no perfect solution for road order problem. Adding 20 km long qualifying stage to gravel rally still makes it unfair for first 3-4 cars on the road , (and unfair for last cars on tarmac) stage). Shakedown qualifying is in my mind the best solution for the current dilemma.
2nd Option is to make a power stage like qualifying stage (still quite short) on tarmac and do it just after shakedown.

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Originally Posted by able1

In some rallies (like sweden and turkey and some other) are really unfair for first cars on the road. Winning in Monte Carlo = having no chance in sweden due to road order.

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Some years with less snow first on the road has been an advantage for Sweden, with later cars losing studs in the gravel after digging through the snow. This year they had a big dump of fresh snow right before the rally and it was a disadvantage. The variable isn't the road position, its the weather conditions.

Similar thing - usually a late road position is good for Sardegna, this year the friday was a mudbath making later cars very slow and then giving them a bad road position for the saturday because it dried out.

Poland a few years ago nobody after about 4th on the road could get anywhere close to the starters because they were fighting through 300mm deep ruts dug by the first cars.

You can single out individual rallies to show an advantage either way, but it usually averages out over a season - they get advantage on some rallies and disadvantage on others. What some people seem to want is for the fastest drivers to get reshuffled into an advantageous position for every rally (which sometimes can't even be decided until the rally starts), making the competition less close.

Talking about shorter events makes sense, once Ciesla already mention it as a way to get more events into the calendar; but what do people think about the calendar expansion: Is it worthy for the sport? Will it stop on the 14 events? How would the ideal championship look like? Besides shorter events, what other ways could be found to balance the promoter expansion ambitions and manus raising costs?

As an official in Australia, we currently put in 12 hour+ days. If you add an extra loop on the Saturday, I think that would be just too much.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

We had a bit of discussion about this in the Citroen thread but let's move the discussion over here

The point was that Ogier suggested that rallies should be shortened to two days (of course, Ogier wants more time with his family) but keeping the stage kilometres at 300 where they are now. This could be doable, by having tighter and longer days of rallying, and like Ogier says, this would increase the endurance element slightly.

My suggestion would be to attempt something like this, to cut one day of the rally week.

FRIDAY
Morning - Shakedown
Afternoon - Ceremonial start
Evening - Opening super special, one loop of stages

SATURDAY
Three loops of stages instead of two.

SUNDAY
As it is now.

This way we would simply move half of the Friday stage kilometres onto Saturday. Of course, this would lead into problems like repeated stages would have to be driven on two different days or then implement something like in Finland 2017 where you repeat a stage within a loop instead of over two loops (ie you drive 2-3 stages once, then do them again before going service). Timetable-wise there's also a challenge to cram that many stages into one day, but that would maybe put more emphasis on longer stages, as they are more efficient time-wise (ie it's quicker to drive a 45 km stage than three 15 km stages). This plan would also keep the opening super special on the evening and the ending of the rally on Sunday afternoon, and in addition all the action would happen on the weekend. For team members and spectators it would be one day less of traveling but with the same amount of action available.

How should WRC rallies evolve over the next years? (yeah, we know everyone wants 1000 km events with no repeated stages and overnight driving and return of old Safari etc but let's try to be realistic).

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Originally Posted by Farbar1

As an official in Australia, we currently put in 12 hour+ days. If you add an extra loop on the Saturday, I think that would be just too much.

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Would just need some rearranging.

Unfortunately that might prove a little difficult. They can be very long days and if you start looking at 2 shifts, you may need many more officials. In any case Ogier was on his way back to Europe on the Sunday night this year.

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Originally Posted by Farbar1

Unfortunately that might prove a little difficult. They can be very long days and if you start looking at 2 shifts, you may need many more officials. In any case Ogier was on his way back to Europe on the Sunday night this year.

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In this example Friday would be shorter, so the officials who didn't work on Friday morning could work the extra Saturday shift? But yeah, I admit I don't know how this would be done in practice and I already tried to make an example schedule for Rally Finland (whose route, stages and distances I know quite well) and noticed it's pretty tricky to squeeze that many kilometres into one Saturday.

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Originally Posted by GravelBen

I'd rather see more new stages than see who has memorised an old stage best after driving it 50 times in their career.

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With all live everyone can memorize stages and they don't even have to drive it. But you have a point. Same old stages every year by year is a little boring. Even rallies are a bit the same. Couple of them could rotate so that could fire things up.

With all live you don`t see new stages, when they are first introduced.

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Originally Posted by able1

In some rallies (like sweden and turkey and some other) are really unfair for first cars on the road. Winning in Monte Carlo = having no chance in sweden due to road order.

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GravelBen have already touched the subject, but over the last years (since VW got involved and Ogier started complaining), the only year where it has been a disadvantage running first in Sweden was 2018, in a majority of these years it's been an advantage going early, not only due to the later cars losing more studs, but on icy surface without loose snow on top, you rip up icedust, that will be sprinkled on top of the surface, making it more slippery for the late starters.

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Originally Posted by Tarmop

With all live you don`t see new stages, when they are first introduced.

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Do you think that they are not recording recces and are still ''old school'' I bet they are at the computer as soon as recces finish and working on pace notes and making as much as memory as they could. Do yu think that they sitting at the hotel or just signing caps for faans all day between all the ''free time'' after recces.

What you are describing is not all live, videorecording and analysing has been part of the sport probably for 20 years or so.