Can Hamilton reach Schumacher's benchmark record?

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Michael Schumacher stunned the F1 world when he claimed his 7th F1 driver titles to become the greatest and must successfully F1 driver of all time. His achievement was so incredulous that drivers of previous generation's proclamation of Fangio as the GOAT was swiftly reduced to muffled murmurs. A new GOAT was born and he appeared untouchable. I remember the commentaries only too well, it said "l don't think anyone would be able to touch this record l my life time". I always believed that the Schumacher record was an holy grail of F1 reserved for the fantasy of the coming generation.

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When Vettel racked up four world championships, hardened veterans of F1 racing murmured, "is he the promised one, can he reach seven titles". At the time Vettel was a fresh face with four drivers title under his belt. The stuff of dreams for many. Now, along comes Hamilton after what seemed like a doomed career at Mclaren and a decryed move to Mercedes that turned out to be an inspired move, a move that presented him with the car to rack up four more titles. Some 61 years since Juan Manuel Fangio became the first and only driver to win five F1 titles; except Schumacher, Hamilton after a hard fought 2018 season became a five time drivers world champion. A stuff of wild fantasy.

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We find ourselves in our live time, with the possibility of another driver within touching distance of the F1 holy grail of seven F1 driver's title. While we are still trying to properly process and digest the fact that a new five time world champion now exist in F1, we find ourselves forced to entertain the question of whether the Holy Grail of F1 is now attainable.

The question therefore is, can Hamilton who is two titles away from the Schumacher Grail reach this very lofty achievement?

The car pecking order can suddenly change in F1 so regardless of how good a driver he is... I reckon 7 titles is probably out of his reach.

We have very different outlooks, I dont place much value on the number of titles won or the GOAT moniker because unless its a one make series it doesnt really mean anything in itself.

For me its just all about watching and appreciating really great driving/racing no matter whether they finish... first or last.

What Zico said. It's not about how many titles you get because the variables are too great between cars and if you don't have the right car at the right time you are lost (see Alonso for proof). It's how you get to those titles that counts.

For whatever reason. I can see him getting to six by 2020, or before the Mercedes juggernaut takes a pause, but I'm not sure about seven. It all depends on what Mercedes has going into 2021 (assuming he doesn't go on a trot and win the next two) and whether Lewis will even stick around past 2020 (I think that he will).

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

For whatever reason. I can see him getting to six by 2020, or before the Mercedes juggernaut takes a pause, but I'm not sure about seven. It all depends on what Mercedes has going into 2021 (assuming he doesn't go on a trot and win the next two) and whether Lewis will even stick around past 2020 (I think that he will).

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Quite true,
but you never know, anything is possible

I'm a Hammy fan, so I'd like to see him do it. I guess he was about 15 or 16 when I first became aware of him. So it's amazing to see him reach this level of success as the years have passed. Anyway, he seems to be drawn to the "coolness" of the cars as much as anything else. Who knows what they'll eventually end up with, but if the renderings are even close and they get the engine/power unit formula right, I have to believe that Lewis will stick around after this latest contract expires.

A little off topic, but someone with Ferrari (Arrivabene?) said that the 2021 renderings reminded him of an old Champ car... he wasn't impressed. I got news for him: the old Champ cars were sexy beasts - clean and svelte, without too much aero crap hanging off them. And they could race nose to tail, so there's also that. So I'm hoping to see Hamilton (and Ocon ;)) taking the WDC and the WCC in a cool looking Merc in 2021. Maybe that'll be number 8 and breaking the 100 mark in wins. :cheese:

Who cares about Schumacher's records? Hamilton IS already better than Schumacher. Schumacher's career in the 1990s was a joke. First it was tainted with a number of cheating scandals at Benetton (for using banned traction control, lowered car floor, and for removing the refueling valve in 1994) as well as for championship-deciding collisions in 1994 (when he was not punished) and 1997 (when he was punished).

Once Schumacher became the alpha-male at Ferrari, he made sure that Ferrari did not hire anyone who could possibly come anywhere close to challenging him from within the team. So eventually Ferrari hired that useless Barrichello, and Schumacher run unopposed during his unprecedented five-time championship winning streak in 2000-2005.

However, when Schumacher lost his alpha-male status and was put in the same team with Rosberg in 2010-2012, the myth of the best driver of all times quickly fell apart. Rosberg beat him in all three seasons. Having lost some time away from field can damage one's career, but there were many truly good drivers who managed to take some time off and then returned in such great form that it felt that they haven't missed a race (or season). Schumacher wasn't one of them.

On the other hand, Hamilton has never been involved in such scandals, and his 2008, 2014, 2017, and 2018 champion titles were won under immense amount of pressure.

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Originally Posted by zako85

Who cares about Schumacher's records? Hamilton IS already better than Schumacher. Schumacher's career in the 1990s was a joke. First it was tainted with a number of cheating scandals at Benetton (for using banned traction control, lowered car floor, and for removing the refueling valve in 1994) as well as for championship-deciding collisions in 1994 (when he was not punished) and 1997 (when he was punished).

Once Schumacher became the alpha-male at Ferrari, he made sure that Ferrari did not hire anyone who could possibly come anywhere close to challenging him from within the team. So eventually Ferrari hired that useless Barrichello, and Schumacher run unopposed during his unprecedented five-time championship winning streak in 2000-2005.

However, when Schumacher lost his alpha-male status and was put in the same team with Rosberg in 2010-2012, the myth of the best driver of all times quickly fell apart. Rosberg beat him in all three seasons. Having lost some time away from field can damage one's career, but there were many truly good drivers who managed to take some time off and then returned in such great form that it felt that they haven't missed a race (or season). Schumacher wasn't one of them.

On the other hand, Hamilton has never been involved in such scandals, and his 2008, 2014, 2017, and 2018 champion titles were won under immense amount of pressure.

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Yes... but meanwhile Hamiltons detractors will argue that he was just lucky and had the best car.

Which side is right? Both and neither... It just becomes a rolling circular argument that never ends because it can be argued that the playing field wasnt level for a multitude of reasons... for either driver.

Thats when you realise that we should all just try to get along and just enjoy the racing..

zako obviously can't put performances in context.

As for Hamilton/ He'll be racing til he's 45, and doing so driving cars that are 1st or 2nd in the wcc and never below 3rd, so he will gain those records Schumacher set.

Had hamilton driven the redbull in 2010-2013 instead of vettel, he might have been 9 times champion.

And had vettel switched to mercedes in 2014 he might have been 10 times world champion.

Its al about luck and being in the right car at the right time.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

Had hamilton driven the redbull in 2010-2013 instead of vettel, he might have been 9 times champion.

And had vettel switched to mercedes in 2014 he might have been 10 times world champion.

Its al about luck and being in the right car at the right time.

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It is not as simple as that i don't think. Vettel has been in a marginally faster car the last two seasons and has not increased his title tally. There is more to it than a faster car.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

It is not as simple as that i don't think. Vettel has been in a marginally faster car the last two seasons and has not increased his title tally. There is more to it than a faster car.

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True, but a faster car has a whole lot to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

It is not as simple as that i don't think. Vettel has been in a marginally faster car the last two seasons and has not increased his title tally. There is more to it than a faster car.

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I don't believe the ferrari is really faster than the mercedes over the course of a whole year. Hamilton has twice the amount of wins and poles this year than vettel, and vettel is still way ahead of raikkonen.
So either vettel has become slow recently, or the mercedes still had the edge on the majority of the races.

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Originally Posted by Starter

True, but a faster car has a whole lot to do with it.

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If that was the case, Vettel should have won the last two drivers title. But a fast car really helps, not necessarily faster. Which is why Redbull have won four races this season.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

I don't believe the ferrari is really faster than the mercedes over the course of a whole year. Hamilton has twice the amount of wins and poles this year than vettel, and vettel is still way ahead of raikkonen.
So either vettel has become slow recently, or the mercedes still had the edge on the majority of the races.

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You're bang on. But people with their Hamilton glasses on...

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Originally Posted by journeyman racer

zako obviously can't put performances in context.

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I absolutely CAN do that. Note the core of my argument. Should I actually repeat it?

1. Schumacher has been involved in a number of truly despicable cheating incidents, including championship-deciding collisions in 1994 and 1997. He obviously went along with the banned traction control system in 1994.

2. His team was caught red-handed cheating in 1994. The only reason Benetton was not disqualified in 1994 was because the F1 community was already shocked by the death of Ayerton Senna, and everyone wanted to forget that horrible season. So the team was slapped with only a symbolic fine, and Schumacher was banned from a couple of races.

3. In 2000-2004, he was paired with Barrichello at Ferrari, the team with the fastest car. Barrichello raced though the 1990s before coming to Ferrari and hasn't impressed anyone. Schumacher basically run unopposed in 2000-2004, while Hamilton each season at Mercedes had to fight with Rosberg or Vettel.

4. Schumacher made a horrible return in 2010-2012, couldn't even beat Rosberg. We have seen many times drivers take time off and return in a great form (for example Prost in 1993 or Raikkonen in 2012). Schumacher is not on that list.

I don't agree with everything, but I'll pay that.

Schumacher from 2000-04 wasn't entirely as straightforward as you made it seem. 2000 was a closer title race than what we've seen in 2017-18. It wasn't just Hakkinen, even Coulthard had a great season and was in the thick of it til the last few races.

2001. Coulthard was good at the start of year (Had a great win in Brazil). But yeah, this was the start of the Ferrari domination.

2003 had a good title race with Raikkonen and Montoya, albeit artificially due the qualifying format and points allocation. Otherwise Ferrari would've comprehensively dominated that year as well.

I'm not sure of the criticism of Barrichello? By then, Ferrari were well invested in Schumacher. Not even Hamilton was going to disrupt the team dynamics. Not much Barrichello could do. He was overdue for a top ride and had to take what he could get.

The question should probably be... if you were a team boss.. who would you choose between Hamilton and Schumacher in their prime?

No disrespect to either but as good as Schumacher was and as much as I dislike Hamilton... I think I'd still choose Hamilton.

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Originally Posted by Zico

The question should probably be... if you were a team boss.. who would you choose between Hamilton and Schumacher in their prime?

No disrespect to either but as good as Schumacher was and as much as I dislike Hamilton... I think I'd still choose Hamilton.

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That's actually a very hard thing to say. I believe that Hamilton is pretty much unbeatable when he's at his best, but he still has off days every now and then. Schumacher, on the other hand, was an extremely hard worker and massively consistent. I think the Shoe was the safest pick, but enough has been said on how difficult it is to compare both.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

I don't believe the ferrari is really faster than the mercedes over the course of a whole year. Hamilton has twice the amount of wins and poles this year than vettel, and vettel is still way ahead of raikkonen.
So either vettel has become slow recently, or the mercedes still had the edge on the majority of the races.

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Like Lawrence Fishbone said in the matrix; do you want to take the blue pill or the red pill, well Ferrari took the red pill at Singapore chasing the wrong development path which caused their speed advantage to stagnate. At the same time, the slower Mercedes found a solution to their tyre management problem and surged ahead marginally. This is how it is in F1. Ferrari had Mercedes on the ropes and could have taken both titles for the 2018 season as they had the better car really. It did not help that the driving force behind the team passed away which also caused Ferrari to go through a short period of confusion.

The 2018 titles (driver and Constructors) may have been won by Ferrari under a different circumstances. It was a close and hard fought season which punished the slightest weakness or errors and Ferrari had many. Mercedes were very nervous most of the season.

Mercedes looked dominant because Hamilton turned on his magic and took the Mercedes to heights not thought possible by the twitchy 2018 Mercedes car.

I think he can so long as Merc give him a car that can do so. (Yeah, I didn't read anything up above before making this profound statement :D)

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Like Lawrence Fishbone said in the matrix; do you want to take the blue pill or the red pill, well Ferrari took the red pill at Singapore chasing the wrong development path which caused their speed advantage to stagnate. At the same time, the slower Mercedes found a solution to their tyre management problem and surged ahead marginally. This is how it is in F1. Ferrari had Mercedes on the ropes and could have taken both titles for the 2018 season as they had the better car really. It did not help that the driving force behind the team passed away which also caused Ferrari to go through a short period of confusion.

The 2018 titles (driver and Constructors) may have been won by Ferrari under a different circumstances. It was a close and hard fought season which punished the slightest weakness or errors and Ferrari had many. Mercedes were very nervous most of the season.

Mercedes looked dominant because Hamilton turned on his magic and took the Mercedes to heights not thought possible by the twitchy 2018 Mercedes car.

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Garbage. This isn't the 60s &70s, where you could've had a huge advantage one year, only for the update to be obsolete the following.

As long as the engine regs are the same, MB will have an advantage. They were dominant from 14-16. Then the regs changed and Ferrari made some ground. Ferrari wouldn't know why or where they gained ground in the past couple of seasons. Vettel made some errors. But over the course of the season, the title would've been Hamilton's. Because he had the best car, and Bottas became expendable.


All the accumulative knowledge gained over many decades, all the resources MB put in the 2018 car after building the best car for 4 years. You think the 2018 MB was "twitchy"?

It's horse****, and the embellishment of Hamilton make me puke. However good he is, he's still at the effect of the cars he drives. Otherwise, aside from choking and underperforming, what was he doing from 2009-13? A period of time that can fit his hybrid turbo MB career.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

Had hamilton driven the redbull in 2010-2013 instead of vettel, he might have been 9 times champion.

And had vettel switched to mercedes in 2014 he might have been 10 times world champion.

Its al about luck and being in the right car at the right time.

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To a certain degree, that's true. But it's also about how well a driver can handle a skilled teammate - witness Senna vs. Prost. Based on the Hamilton vs. Rosberg battles (and mind games), had Vettel gone to Mercedes in 2014, my guess is Nico Rosberg would have picked up a couple more WDCs along the way. Rosberg may not have had quite the racing skill set that Ricciardo had when he spoiled Vettel's party at Red Bull, but Nico's bag of tricks (mind game wise) was obviously quite full. I'm not convinced that Vettel would have been able to deal with that so well - especially since he would have been the new kid at Merc.

As for this past season, if Ferrari had a crystal ball and could have known how Vettel would melt under pressure, they might have chosen to have Hamilton in the SF71H, if they'd had a choice of drivers. There were times in the past when I felt that Lewis' personal life caused him to lose focus on race weekends (even though he always managed to find a win, even in seasons when his car was far from the best). But this season, it seems that his focus and attitude were pretty laser like. IMO, he's matured much better than Seb has.

But it's all speculation... all in fun. We'll never know.