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There are many who say that this or that rally is very special-
I ask; For who and in relation to what.
Quote Originally Posted by electroliquid View Post
Sorry for OT, but which rally isn't specific in WRC or ERC? I always thought that Rally Finland is classic rally - exactly as rally should be.
you will understand at next rally why Finland is specific.
Why: dimviii
wow...
i never knew there are people like you in real life....
you learn something every day.
In any case, I would say that the most specific, for most drivers from most countries is Monte. Scandinavian, Baltic and probably Spanish, Portuguese, Greek .... yes maybe all other countries than France and Italy dont run rally with snow and ice on asphalt. What other countries run rally with Monte-spikes might you tell me.
i would say monte or sweden.
You know Portugal? Lol we don’t have snow or ice in rally for years...
Can not agree with that, at least not entirely. For Russians, baltic (maybe also Polish) and of course Scandinavians, Swedish is not a special rally. They are used with tires that have 20mm studs (6-8mm overhang). They are also used to fast relatively wide forest roads.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
(Believe it or not) Driving with spikes is also very similar to various types of gravel.
And with this reasoning, I think Monte is more specific also for most drivers.
i was comparing them with other wrc rally's, not with every single rally on the planet. for fins, finland is not special. for mexicans, mexico is not special, ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
gravel and asphalt are the usual surface in the wrc. snow, and asphalt with snow are the exceptions.
I argue just because I think this is an interesting topic, not to pick on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
But as you understand, I disagree that Swedish is so special as people from the continent constantly mention, and I think it is due to lack of experience driving on studdy tires.
I repeat; It is very similar to driving on gravel.
having grip at snow,is not similar to gravel.If it was similar we had seen plenty south Europe drivers to succeed at Sweden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
Plenty, who? Of the big one's, it's rarest that not Colin, Carlos and Didier ever won. Colin and Carlos were very close on several occasions. It was only unfortunate circumstances that caused them not to win. Even Didier was in charge and could have won if he was not disqualified or added time for help outside the service area.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
But: Carlos never won in Australia either, Didier also did not win in Britania or Portugal.
Gravel is not simular to gravel either. Some gravel are more simular to snow and is than to some other form of gravel.
I didn't said that plenty have won,the opposite I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
so give us your explanation why South European they haven't succeed at Sweden,when ''snow grip is as gravel''
And give us your explanation why Finish drivers don't succeed at asphalt events.
The secret in Sweden used to be leaning to snowbanks, the Scandinavians knew how to do that, but the Southern Europeans couldn't do it. Nowadays there's less snow anyway.
You write if it was equal, plenty of southern Europeans would have won or had success, then I answer plenty who? Who are the plenty you think could or would have been successful?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Who are these plenty who have won all over the world and who have not been able to win in Sweden because snow is so special?
Then I try to help, maybe you just mean the three I mention, and so I explain why. Coincidences. And there are other rally they have not won too.
Gravel or gravel roads around the world (and Europe) are very different. From volcanic gravel of different grades on the Azores, to roll gravel in Australia on roads without ditches. Sweden is no more special than the most special gravel around the world Everyone who wants to get to the top of the WRC must learn, I would say less special.
I mean the opposite.NOT plenty south European drivers have won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
so I am waiting the explanation why Swedish/Finland drivers have won 30+ times and only 4 times South Europe drivers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
how aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
its not the only one that makes it specific rally.For sure its one of the reason.This doesn't happening at any other wrc event.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
[QUOTE=dimviii;1149232]I mean the opposite.NOT plenty south European drivers have won.
Is this posible, you twist the answer one more time, i give up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
Coach, my good friend I lived in Sweden for may years and drove millions of miles on Swedish gravel roads and some are quite wide and very very good surface. I wasn't a rally driver then so I didn't give it a lot of thought. Then.
Of course once I was a rally driver (1984) I, we, all looked at every video we could find...And then I began returning for business (my business was a specialty Saab business emphasis on whole car builds--basically I made rally cars tthat had interiors and taller final drive for "fast road use") and then asked friends in the business about stages and THEN suddenly I was shocked senseless...
Many many were EXTREMELY narrow...
But even now if you look at WRC vids or even (much better) District level Grupp H events the roads you see on the vids look broad and smooth..
So I thought and I think fairly certain the reason you see wide and smooth roads is because---and that's usually going along edges of fields---is because that's where a cameraman can film some action for some duration...because its fields..
If they were deep in the woods, first there no place to stand and second they could only see the car ZIP! for 1 second maybe if lucky 2 seconds..
Around the fields are those chest deep ditches and IN the woods there are stumps of trees and rocks often just 5 cm from the edge of the road..
In short I was scared sh1tless how narrow the roads were, how sometimes chewed up and how fast even locals were all relative to here in Festung Amerika...
In 1993 I visit Monte Carlo because I was "homesick" for France..it was 14 years since I lived and raced all over France...and then went up to Sweden and bought some junky Citroen and went out to Värmland for WRC Sweden...I drove out from several SS after last car and then I get to see how insanely rutted the roads were..VERY! deep ruts and no snow after the first cars, it gets compressed into ICE...
Very special events..very tricky roads..Unique? Finland and Sweden...Monte? a classic but really not since the dropping of the "Concentration Run"..Just a very narrow set of roads and the potential for mixed conditions.
1993 for example clean asphalt for every stage. So it was just an asphalt event...
I have said 3 times EXACTLY the same.That you don't have explanation about youe statement,doesnt mean that your mates ''twist'' their opinions. You could say that I just said something stupid,and icant explain it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
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Originally Posted by dimviii
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
actually with "pretty good" tires its better grip.. I cannot imagine what it would be like with fresh new Nordic spec winter studs on a car..But I was in Sweden to learn a profession and I did a lot of very serious training with "pretty OK" moto-cross tires with 300 rally studs and I tell you it was much better than summer for grip..Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Indeed it taught me a lot about what I was doing wrong in summer..
I think the differences is what I was saying above, the narrowness and high speeds, and of course the depth of good drivers in a given start field..
I have seen Finnish F-cup events where in the "senior" class 1st thru 56th, the entire class on every SS was within 1 minute SS time. I don't see that kind of depth in other countries.. hell here in Merikuh we see minutes between cars in same class per stage...
Good point at the end..It was big news the first time somebody other than a Swede or a Finn won in Sweden---or Finland and only a very few have ever..
I do not think you write anything that's stupid, at all. But I do not understand what you misunderstand of what I'm writing, is my English so bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
I do not understand why you can not answer who these plenty are that would have won if I'm right; that there is no big difference between snow / ice and different types of gravel.
I will not bother with you more.What I wrote is at previous posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
Jan is not only tyres'' that have grip'',its the roads, its the banks,its the suspension tuning etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
grip is not the same at all stages,hard packed,fresh snow,melt etc What requires a fine suspension, cant be find with just ,once per year vs years competitionat at these conditions.
using the snow banks is not something you will find again once a year,vs plenty of years touching the banks,and recognizing where you can and where you will destroy the car.
Same at tarmac.One rally 4stages,4 different asphalt surfaces,that requires different clicks at shocks, different center diff programm,different tyre pressures,even different compound and different tyre make.A northern driver will, not manage to know all these if he competes once a year,and when he started to compete at asphalt(or snow for a Southern) at the age of 24-26-28 years old.
Why continental Europeans (including Britain) have not won more rally Sweden can be explained in other ways than blaming snow.
I have already explained why Carlos, Colin and Didier did not win and argued that there were other rallies than Sweden they did not win in too.
That Loeb does not win more Rally Sweden is due to the car, most likely. Citroen had a large tire wear when a lot of frozen gravel appeared. Ford was almost always better on slippery roads, both on mud and snow. Loeb won one of two opportunities to win rally Norway
When Petter went to Ford in 99 had relatively little experience with snow (few rally), from then on, he drove (like almost everyone in WRC) only one race on snow per year, Sweden. Even he managed to win this rally once (like Loeb). I will dedicate this victory with great help from Mækinen and Pirelly, not much experience on snow. The fact that Mækinen, Grønholm and Latvala have had Sweden as their favorite rally (in addition to Finland of course) have also not benefited South European victories.
In addition, we do not need to explain why Loeb and Ogier have won rally Britain 7 times, while Tommy Mækinen never won there.
And if you think Latvala and Mikkelsen have many years of snow experience, you're wrong. They started driving in Great Britain when they were 17 and have run around the world after that. Ogier who has won many Swedish does not have this experience either. But what they have is extensive experience on varied road surfaces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
yes yes..I was speaking of only tire grip on "normal winter roads" versus summer and really I was comparing summer Dirtwhich actually is better than most gravel on a hard bed..
Naturally all those other things are factors on how a driver does his job...and yeah I began disassembling shocks and learning what to do in winter now over 40 years ago...doesn't mean I know a goddam thing about any kind of asphalt---except it is all treacherous.
We have winter event in Lithuania with ice/snow roads and average speed is higher than summer on gravel, so it means grip is better. One of the reasons why ice/snow events is tricky is due how surface conditions depends on air conditions, in -20 degrees C is superb grip with studded tires, at 0 degrees C there is almost no grip at all. If there is fresh snow on road - it changes everything. So there is many variables - air temperature, ice thickness, there is snow or not, snow amount, snowbanks. I'm sure that everyone rally fan form Nordic know that and much much more ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
I love to read your posts, janvanvurpa, although not always understand every american/Swedish expression.
Plain wrong. Citroen had multiple dominant cars during the Loeb era, they excelled on all surfaces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
BTW what Dimvii wrote made perfect sense. You said that snow was same grip as gravel, but if that were true then one would expect different nationalities to win, just like they do at other gravel events. That's not the case, so Sweden obviously isn't like any normal gravel rally.
Snow banks, you got to be brave enough to lean on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJan
Please guys, this is getting very stupid. I have not said that Sweden is not special, but it's not as special as many want it to be, at least not all years (amount of snow / temperature etc etc). Especially those from Continental Europe who have not driven rally, or at least those who have not driven with "Scandinavian" spikes (studs) at all, think it's very special. If you ask the top drivers, they will certainly say it's a bit special but very fun. Remember: This year, Neuville and Latvala won 6 stages each.
My reply to the first post was: quote; "I can not agree with that, at least not entirely," and I repeat "at least not entirely".
This quote is not to misunderstand, or?
Try not to read what I'm writing as the devil wanted to read the Bible. We are nice boys, are we not?
Then I try to explain why I do not "totally" agree: Quote: "Some gravel are more simular to snow and ice, than to some other kind of gravel".
This means that there are very large differences in gravel roads around the world as well, and especially large are these differences when weather changes (rain).
And I repeat; Despite the well-known problems that Citroen had in Sweden, Loeb managed to win there and in Norway. He also became No. 2 after Ogier in 2013 in front of Latvala.
Are there any common thing for those who win rally all over the world, yes.
And I quote: they have extensive experience on varied road surfaces.