Hard to believe there is no discussion on here about the upcoming vote. Especially considering the large percentage of members from the "island".
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Hard to believe there is no discussion on here about the upcoming vote. Especially considering the large percentage of members from the "island".
I vote by post so I voted about 2 weeks ago. It has turned into a really nasty campaign IMO. Each side calling the others haters etc.... No need for that. If you cant argue your side without excepting someone elses right to a different opinion then it doesnt say much.
I personally think the final result will be remain in the EU by something like 54% to 46%
What kind of news is it making across Europe and the wider world guys? Its all you see on the news here as you would expect.
From here it's being called a toss up. No clear majority either way. Personally, I can see valid points on both sides. It'll be an important vote either way and European history will be changed.
Probably wouldn't have gotten this far if the solvent countries had been more active earlier in reining in the excesses of the countries who don't have a clue about fiscal responsibility. IMO of course.
I am far from being an expert in EU or British politics and economy, but the brexit referendum seems strange to me because UK is already detached from most of the EU's monetary troubles in one important way: the UK retains its separate currency, the British pound, and therefore UK is in charge of its central baking policy. If the roots of disaffection with the EU are not of monetary/central banking nature, then what is it?
Just wait until Ukraine, with its corrupt oligarchical political system and broken economy, joins the EU. That day, the current day "troubles" will seem like the golden age of EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
You have a clear picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
It sadly appears that many people voting to leave are angry with the level of migration from Europe and see leaving as a way to stop free movement of people. That is seemly also the only thing that pro EU campaigners think that Leavers have a problem with.
There is suggest Economic pros to EU but also negatives being cited. Some people suggest the UK would have more freedom to seek trade and negotiate deals around the world. I am not expert to know how much difference that makes.
People say that they feel that voting for Members of Parliament here only for many laws and deals to be made by the EU is not what they want.
Some think that what started as a trade organisation is now becoming a United states of Europe.
Some people just want the UK to just be completely free and independent in its ideas and direction in future.
Some plain think it has always been and always will be a bad idea to be a member and if you think it may not work then they will vote to get out now.
Whatever they seem to think the vote will be very close. All these above points are pointing out why some want to leave from what I have heard. The opposites are largely true for those in the Remain camp.
The worst thing for me is the assumption by leavers that pro campaigners are all scared to leave or pro the State of Europe. While Pro people only class leavers as haters.
There has been far to much mud slinging and name calling in this.
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Sounds just like our current presidential campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
Your, and much of the rest of Europe's, problem is the large numbers of immigrants. Immigrants are a good thing for most countries up to a point. When the quantity of people coming in exceeds the ability of the host country to assimilate them, good feelings toward the immigrants will not ensue. You also wind up with too many people not working. That's not a knock at the immigrants, many want to work but have issues with language and needed skills. Add in the immigrants who can't find a job to the numbers of native born who either can't find a job or don't want a job - exacerbated by the global recession - and you have a substantial percent on the dole. Tax paying citizens get tired of this real fast.
Now throw in the large quantities of money going to keep places like Greece afloat and it makes one wonder why it's taken this long for a credible opposition to rise up and insist on change. No matter what side you are on you have to admit there is a valid point for the folks who want to leave. Perhaps its out weighed by reasons to stay, still there is lots of room for debate.
With respect... bollocks! :andrea:Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
(I'm also an immigrant, and before anybody tries, I'm sick of hearing the old "Oh but I don't mean you" argument)
The irony is that the majority of our immigration doesn't come from Europe, so we actually already have 'control' over that. Also if we're to have any kind of trade deal with the EU (if we leave) then it will almost certainly include allowing flow of labour....which will put us pretty much where we are now.
I think another big thing that makes people want to leave is that they feel they're being dictated to by laws from European bureaucrats who weren't elected...which isn't the case (although laws are proposed by unelected members they have to be agreed by people who have been elected...which is pretty much the same as the House of Lords system we have in the UK anyway). Also many of the people that are voting to Exit can't actually name any of the laws they supposedly don't like, or name ones that can be easily debunked. A good example was this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...s-says-EU.html
Only if you actually read into it there is a clause which says that member states can add their own exclusions, as long as they notify the EU. Another big talking point is economics and the supposed way that we give billions to the EU, which overlooks the benefits we get in return (not leas the trade deal).
As Steveaki says it's been an unpleasant campaign, truthfully I don't think any of them really know and both sides have used a lot of spin, more than you seem to get in normal election campaigns. The in fighting within parties is interesting also, and might have repercussions, personally I wish politics was more like that though. Too often you hear ministers just giving the party line rather than their own opinion.
Anyway, hopefully we make the right choice. As you may gather I'm quite strongly in one camp, and I'm genuinely worried about what could happen, but I'm intrigued by the outcome either way.
Not sure about your country, but IME there are many immigrants who are better skilled and harder working than the British. The people scrounging benefit are generally 'English', spend most of their day smoking and watching 50" TVs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Not that I'm trying to justify what some incompetent politicians have done with the money but that view is a little too simplistic. There were other forces that made money move from frugal Germany and others like that to the more easy going Southern Europeans. For instance, a country like Spain found itself in trouble even if they were rather fiscally responsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
The problem UK is having with UE is the free movement of people. The source of all problems in UK are the Poles, Romanians and the other Eastern Europeans. If they can get rid of them they're golden. Heaven on earth.
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Nice post Steve. By reading it through the lines I think that you voted to stay with us.
BTW, it's bloody hilarious that the country that was the biggest colonial empire has issues with immigrants.
Nice cherry picking of only part of my statement. Do you work for either the Trump or Hillary campaigns? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
Well... what can one say? The sheer stupidity of humankind still baffles me. What's next? Trump president?
Crazy Brits, what are they even thinking? A voluntary vote to screw their country, that must be a first.
Why does everyone everywhere I see be negative? OK so its going to be tough and not ideal, but its what we have and we can still be a successful country. It just wont be as part of the EU. We are not going to become a 3rd world nation. In 10 years, 50 years or 100 years it may be the best decision. If the EU fails.
However it could be a bad decision that see's us struggle and wish we hadnt left.
Whatever I think to many just condemn. We will be OK. It will just be different. We must be positive, take it on the chin and make it work the best we can.
There are a couple of reasons that I'm negative. The first is that I liked being part of the EU, it made sense. Secondly I think that this is a huge gamble that will almost certainly (in the short term at least) see our economy suffer. Thirdly I think it could lead to instability within the EU and I don't think that's good either.
But mainly in upset because I think people have voted emotionally rather than listening to facts. So much of both campaigns were spin but already we've had Farage announcing that the figure quoted as going to the NHS each week was wrong and a mistake.
I spent the last 10 minutes trying to change my username on this forum with no results. Can't we do that anymore? I'm starting to dislike the one I have right now. This may sound out of topic but it isn't :laugh:
We get it. You want to change your name cos it's English.
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I agree Mr Jan that many have voted emotionally. I would say there are no Facts though.
We might be hugely successful in 50 years. We might falter terribly.
Or the EU might fail completely in 30 years with or without us. Or it might see everyone be rich.
No facts because no one can know what the future holds. Decision is made. We need to move on and make it work.
I don't quite get why people think we don't want to be friends with Europe. I think it's more that the people don't agree with how the EU is working.
Just my of opinion
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"Bland reflected that the local verdict seemed to be the comfortable and probably age-long one of attributing every tragic occurrence to unspecified foreigners" from Dead man's folly by Agatha Christie. I came across it the other day and thought how this sort of sums up Britain's attitude towards everyone else.
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This duplicity becomes a little tiresome. We love the Europe, it's just that everything that's wrong in UK is because of Europe. But we love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
I think it's more about how people are stupid. Most people don't even have a clue how EU works. This is just how that Farage clown put it, it's all about immigration.
Important day today. I think most of the british dont have a grasp on how huge the consequences of this decision will be.
I am afraid this will be the start of the end of the EU, it may take 10 or 15 years but Im positive the project will start to loose even more legs, and Europe will again become a bunch of countries forcing different directions, fighting to thrive with there small economies, living on past glory without having any importance on this twenty first century World, just like the UK.
Secretly the US rejoice.
Just a bit sad to feel however that if Immigration wasn't a problem the voting would be so different, even though I think the EU is at fault for poor decision making.
Exit 52% - 48% Remain.
It will be interesting what kind of process this is going to be, I kind of hope the exit treaty will be such that it's going to hurt UK's business with EU.
I hope there isn't going to be any special treaty between UK and EU now, where they get to cherry pick what they want and what not, the way some people think it will happen. If they still want access to the single market they must take all of it. And if UE members have to respect certain rules to be part of it, so should Britain. Of course that will mean Britain would be pretty much like an EU member, only without voting rights.
It would also be good for everyone for Britain to leave fast now.
What I really meant is that people have been pulled in by lies and mis-truths. For example I know several people who have commented about Turkey becoming a member and there being more people eligible to move to the UK. The fact is that they have only completed 1 of the 35 chapters required to join the EU in the last decade (since applying in 2005). https://fullfact.org/europe/turkey-likely-join-eu/Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
Likewise the "£350 million per week to NHS" line, when the fact was that it would never be that figure and it would never all go to the NHS (especially when the forefront of the Leave campaign are selling off the NHS anyway).
I'm hugely disappointed this morning. I've even surprised myself by being worried about Cameron resigning, mainly because it seems to me that two likely candidates are Boris and Gove, the latter of which is a c**t. The only brightside I can see is that at least Osborne might have to fall on his sword too.
The global village idiot expressed his delight with the result. So when you get the approval of someone like Trump, you are definitely doing something wrong.
Bite your tongue!Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
This is a good thing for the EU because it will force them to seriously reevaluate policys and directions. That's a reevaluation that almost certainly would not have happened without the vote.
I think most of you are looking at too short a term. You need to consider the long run. You've only been part of the EU for what, 30 or so years? That's a minor blip in history. There will be some short term disruption then things will settle down. In the long run an independent country can find a better path for itself or possibly rejoin the EU somewhere down the road after they clean up their act. Perhaps a closer alliance with Asia? (We might even let you apply to become a state. :eek: ) Anything is possible and being all negative serves no purpose but to make yourself feel bad.
What????Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Is EU a sort of a game? First you're a member who imposed your conditions to join, then you're unhappy, take your toys and leave causing trouble for the others, but then you might come back when your muscles want it. No sir! Farewell and leave us alone.
@ Starter - You clearly have very little grasp on the nature of the EU or politics on this side of the world. As gadjo says, there won't be any crawling back to the EU (certainly not in any economical fashion) and this has far bigger repercussions for the EU than them just looking at policies but could lead to more countries leaving and an instability which could even result in the EU ceasing to exist.
Incidentally I think it's cute that an American felt the need to talk about history :p: ;)
I doubt that, if there ever were a "regrouping", that it would be crawling back. It would be mutually beneficial or it wouldn't happen. Of course it has huge implications for the EU, duh.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJan
Much of Europe has had a free ride and is a little too sassy. Think of what would happen (it's not going to happen, but think about it if it did) should the US decide to pull back all economic aid and it's military presence from Europe. You'll be up close and personal with Mr. Putin.
The advantage of living over here is that I get to run my mouth about you guys just as many of you felt free to express your opinions about American issues not so long ago. With just as much accuracy and depth of understanding too. ;)Quote:
Incidentally I think it's cute that an American felt the need to talk about history :p: ;)
Of course we are all perfectly qualified to speak on these issues because we are the highly educated and trained expert diplomats which all the nations of the world only wish they had access to. They should hire all of us posters on this forum. We'd set them straight in no time.
I'm slightly ashamed to be British right now.
People have clearly voted for something that they have no idea about. This can be summed up by what happened in Sunderland.
The towns economy is built around the Nissan plant, employing nearly 7000 people. 80% of what is made there is exported to the EU. Yet 60% of people from this area voted to leave.
Seriously, what is wrong with people? Why has it become fashionable to be anti-intellectual.
Or is it just because people hate foreigners.
Despite what I voted. I still get angry that there is such bile at those who vote to leave.
Maybe they truly believe that the EU will fail or the a United states of Europe is coming or that the UKs future is better away from the EU.
Why is everyone so anti peoples choice. Democracy gives people the right to decide and the right to get things wrong in your eyes and right in others. We should now be accepting the decision and moving on to try and build a new direction.
Also why is it a feeling that people hate Europe? We will still want to buy their goods and they will still want to buy ours. Leaving the EU means not liking the organisation, the running of it or just the principle. It doesnt mean not wanting to be friends.
Its like wanting to stay friends but buying your own house. lol
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...91&oe=57F2F5B7Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
Direct-democracy (i.e referendum) only result in populism winning.
So whats the answer? Dictatorship?
I think if you stand by democracy you cant demand people turn out to vote in all sorts of elections and when they do. Say hang on. It didnt go the way we want so we should take the right away.... thats bonkers.
If you give rich, poor, educated and uneducated the right to vote. You except the decision and move on. Not moan and bitch about it.
IMO.
Democracy is bigger than what we as individuals think is right.
Direct democracy is not the same as Parliamentary Democracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
That's what scares me. That average people with no competence in a certain field are called to take decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
Real friendship is not related to a pragmatic attitude. It might require loyalty and sacrifices. I generally appreciate your positive attitude but I don't believe that stupid cliche of we divorced but we're still best friends. :pQuote:
Also why is it a feeling that people hate Europe? We will still want to buy their goods and they will still want to buy ours. Leaving the EU means not liking the organisation, the running of it or just the principle. It doesnt mean not wanting to be friends.
Nobody ever forced UK to join EU in the first place, that's why I dislike yesterday's choice.