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I do despair a bit at the moment. We seem to be headed down an isolationist path, especially ahead of next years general election. Politicians seem to be keen to be cracking down on immigration and those nasty foreigners, even to the extent of leaving the European Union to achieve it.
I believe the whole Europe issue is a massive distraction to the issues the country really faces in terms of getting the economy turned around. But hey, it's always nice to blame someone or something instead.
Hit the nail on the head!
I had a dream the other night that the Ukips won a further three MPs in bye-elections. The way things are going we could have a Conservative/Ukip coalition after the next general election.
I've said this before, but the problem with the EU is that it is a difficult sell. Everything in the media about the EU is reported as a negative. None of the positive things that the EU gives us is fairly reported, so you end up with a ridiculous situation were people like farmers, whose industry relies heavily on CAP subsidies, vote for Euro-sceptic parties. I bet you could take a sample survey of workers from the Sunderland Nissan plant and many would say they were anti-EU, completely ignorant to the fact their job exists because of the UK being part of the EU.
One of the main reason for this swing to the right in our politics is that the majority of voters are older voters. And as a generalisation older people tend to be less sympathetic when it comes to things like immigration and foreign aid. People of my generation aren't voting and as a result the main political parties aren't going to waste time with policy that might get their vote.
Another reason is that people are just generally ignorant when it comes to subjects like illegal immigration, refugees and foreign aid. People seem to think that all our foreign aid is spent on Pakistan's nuclear weapons and all refugees are here to take our benefits (how all of these Somalian children without any parents or school education are aware of the UK welfare system is amazing isn't it?).
None of this is important to the reality of my life. I'm in my 20s and really want to buy my own house, but none of the political parties seem bothered that houses in London are inflating by 20% per year. Sure, net increase in migration and general population increase affects the housing market, but it isn't the main cause. Get more Romanians and Poles over here to build us some affordable housing!
You seem to have much the same immigration issue that we have in the US, except yours isn't Hispanic based. Part of the problem is that, while most are just looking for a better life, there is a large enough minority who are happy to have a free ride and that creates the basis for painting them all that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
One of the issues with large immigrant populations is that the economy can only absorb just so many over a given period of time. Particularly when the economy is struggling. Then you have the people who do have jobs beginning to resent the "free loaders" and voting that way. My solution would be to control immigration at a sustainable level and use the money saved (from benefits) to invest in the countries when the immigrants originated in order to boost the economy there and eliminate some of the impetus to leave. Realizing that the governments (and I use the term loosely) in some of those countries are problimatical at best and usually corrupt so getting bang for the buck would be difficult.
It seems a lot of the population want that approach too though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Either side of the debate seem to think the other is being bluffed or is not thinking straight.
Fact is most do. They believe whichever side they are on is the right path.
Trouble is the sides are so far apart, what happens to the people on the side that lose is unclear. It could lead to massive trouble.
Yup, the problem is that no one really knows how many create that minority. Over here we probably have more people like this scumbag http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-s...wales-29714408 than we do immigrants over here to live off the state. Having worked for a company that did maintenance on social housing, I have more experience of people born in the UK sponging off the state than I have people born overseas (although, to be fair, I do live in one of the whitest and most inbred parts of the country).Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Wow. Not a fan of the South West then :pQuote:
Originally Posted by MrJan
Is immigration the real cause here? Really? Really?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
If you were to do an actual economic analysis of actual "freeloading" who is more at fault? People on benefits, or the members of the DJIA, the FT-SE or the ASX 200?
http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-e...#ixzz3GosJfjSK
The 90-page look at the the tax contributions of the S&P/ASX 200 between 2004 and 2013 – the first research of its kind attempted – claims up to $80 billion was foregone by the taxman over that period; a sum of money that could all but wipe out the government's past two budget deficits.
- Sydney Morning Herald, 29th Sep 2014.
I bet that that's the same for the UK, the US as it is in Australia.
The Ukay is headed nowhere. Has always been. I do sound optimistic and cheerful this morning, don't I? :waive:
Quite the opposite. I was born in Exeter and, bar 3 years at uni (when I was in Falmouth) have lived here my whole life. It's a glorious place, fantastic countryside and close to the sea and some great beaches. Having lived here for that long though I'm aware of how rarely I see someone that doesn't have white skin, so naturally I'm more likely to bump into good ol' fashioned local benefits cheats.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
Same here.Live in a nice part of the country and don't have the issues that are prevalent in other parts of the country .
Think the big thing that people se is that we pay into the EU pot 50 million EVERY DAY !
And I and them do not see we get that value back
I go down to Spain ,there only last week too ,AND they have superb quiet dual carriageways that are deserted,,every time I go there they are building houses,roads ,gardens ,are they are supposed to be going belly up .So the money has to come from the EU .There are also too many lazy people who are work shy here ,claiming all the benefits they get pushed towards them ,even getting advise at the job centers of how to milk the system !Then I as a pensioner get £104 per week to live on ,whilst on benefits some are on £550 per week .We see the gravy train in Brussels ,the money waisted,now a deputy for Junker ,who is as Junker says been my mate for a long time .Some feel the EU is taking the pi** Can we not see the light ? I don't have a problem with immigrants ,but Jesus why do they come from Lybia,Afghanistan,Syria,passing through Germany Italy France to get to the UK ? Somebody ,somewhere are told them there is a pot of gold here for them to share
Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
Those who come from those countries are not EU immigrants and we have complete control in the UK as to if we admit them or not and if they get benefits or not, therefore if there's a problem with non-EU migration it has nothing to do with the EU at all, and leaving the EU wouldn't change a thing in that regard.
Most people have a problem with immigration from within the EU .
They also have a problem that a male immigrant here ,gets money to send back to his wife and children living in his former country .We always spend nearly 1 % of our wealth on Foreign Aid ,which may NOT be spent on what we think it is being spent on .There are lots of Despots who rule countries that have Swiss bank accounts with billions invested in them .And how do these immigrants from the Middle East ,long to be here in the UK ,instead of Italy Germany or France
Indeed but it's conflation again, your Middle Eastern immigrant will be just as likely to arrive here if we are outside the EU.
You are quite correct. It's just that its easier to go after the immigrants than the well heeled corporations. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
If I were in charge (probably not going to happen this year), immigration, welfare and corporate tax codes would be dramatically overhauled. In the US I'd also overhaul the entire income tax system.
really? :andrea:Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
I wouldn't think so, but then again I've been an EU immigrant all my life in four different EU countries so I might see things a little different to most of you :p
Do they know how much he owns? Normally you'd be moaning about all the cheap labour undercutting the wages...Quote:
They also have a problem that a male immigrant here ,gets money to send back to his wife and children living in his former country
Think positive: At least he hasn't brought his wife and children "over here" to sponge off your benefits and reduce your pension even further! :dozey:
In my experience those guys generate more for the UK economy than the slackers that do the same job, chuff off to the pub at 3:30 and buy a few pints of imported lager. Worked with a Lithuanian guy that must have earnt twice as much for his employers than his British colleagues. Sure the money went into his home in Lithuania, but the profit that he was making for the company more than made up for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
There was a study done by the University College London , quoted by the BBC , which said that immigrants contributed £25 Billion to the UK economy .
But the BBC [ which is paid Millions per year by the EU to promote the EU ], forgot to mention the part in the study which said the total cost to the UK was £95 Billion per year .
So all the immigration which was encouraged by the Labour government is costing the rest of us £70 Billion PER YEAR .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ys-report.html
Theyz are all out to get you... FACT !!! :laugh:
Thanks. I think we are all a little bit thicker after reading this.Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
It's very easy to shout big numbers like UKIP without looking at the whole picture. We may contribute £50 million a day but we get over £30 million of that back directly in the form of CAP rebate, single farm payments, regional development fund etc. On top of that we build our car industry worth £110 million a day (and nearly 1 million jobs) which is hugely dependant on EU exports (about 45%). And that is just one industry!Quote:
1)Think the big thing that people see is that we pay into the EU pot 50 million EVERY DAY ! And I and them do not see we get that value back.
The UK has the 4th lowest unemployment figure in the EU, so I don't know what you mean by too many. When it comes to benefit fraud it adds up to 0.7% of state welfare (state pension is over 50% of state welfare).Quote:
2)There are also too many lazy people who are work shy here ,claiming all the benefits they get pushed towards them
Why do you think the EU exists just to annoy us? Give us an example of this 'gravy train'? Is there a group of EU bureaucrats who sit in an expensive office in Brussels thinking of new ways to p1ss the UK off? Or have the British newspaper industry figured out that they sell more newspapers when they run a fact-shy story on this so called 'gravy train' ?Quote:
3)We see the gravy train in Brussels ,the money waisted,now a deputy for Junker ,who is as Junker says been my mate for a long time .Some feel the EU is taking the pi** Can we not see the light ?
So we are the only country in Europe who have immigrants? Germany have taken about 25000 Syrian refugees, Sweden have taken over 20000, the UK have only taken about 3000! And are you remotely aware of the issues that Italy have with illegal immigrants?Quote:
I don't have a problem with immigrants ,but Jesus why do they come from Lybia,Afghanistan,Syria,passing through Germany Italy France to get to the UK ? Somebody ,somewhere are told them there is a pot of gold here for them to share
And of course, it's amazing that somehow a homeless refugee in a war-torn country who has lost all his family is aware of the ins and outs of the UK welfare system :rolleyes: Asylum seekers are not allowed to work in the UK and most only receive about £5 a day.
You do realise that you posted a study from Migrationwatch UK? Like they don't have an agenda of their own?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tel 911S
On the immigration issue: if Britain isn't attractiver to immigrants why is there a camp at Calais?
On the question of where is Britain headed. The problem is that for various reasons the manufacturing base that underpins the economy has been eroded at the same time as countries abroad are expanding their manufacturing capacity. We are now in the position that we have to compete with countries with lower costs, which can be due to lower wage levels and standard of living, or to having more modern plant rather than older plant that's been updated.
But, unfortunately, people's expectations have not fallen to match the fall in real national income.
Well think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
If you are an asylum seeker who has landed first in Greece and had your application for asylum rejected then you might think you'll have another chance if you move on to Italy, the same thing happens in Italy so you move on to France. The same thing happens in France so your last shot is England. As a result the last stop is Calais because of the geography of Europe. The fact that there is a camp at Calais shows that it is harder to get into the UK than many would think.
If there are 'pull factors' attracting people to Britain then it is more likely to be the English language that they already know, not state benefits.
The language, and perceived employment opportunities are a big factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Again my post was prompted by David Cameron saying he's going to attempt to limit immigration from within the EU, and we may even end up leaving the EU because of it. But I worry that we may end up sleep walking out of the EU because of the 'immigration problem', but what would leaving the EU do about the camps in Calais? Nothing whatsoever, because the people there don't have the right to live and work in the UK being in or out of the EU would make no difference.
The item was picked up by many other news companies & interested organisations .Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
The main context was that the BBC were lying [ by omission ] about a report by an independent organisation which proved that overall immigration was costing this country an enormous amount of money .
Of course Migration Watch jumped on it , but it was not their original study , & many other non left wing media reports highlighted it .
So it would seem that the socialists are still trying to claim that immigration is good for the UK, despite overwhelming public condemnation .
BBC poll [ is immigration good for the UK ] 95% no . Not the result they wanted so they are now trying to hide the figures .
The report originally from UCL was misinterpreted by Migrationwatch who simply guessed a lot of the figures to try and prove their point and has been blasted by academics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tel 911S
http://www.cream-migration.org/comme...cle.php?blog=8
The inconvenient truth is that Britain has an ageing population with people of a pension age growing faster than the working age population. The only options to address this in the sort term are:
a) make people work longer
b) reduce the state pension
c) increase the working age population (immigrants of a working age)
This isn't some sort of socialist agenda and I understand why it is unpopular with many people, but it is simple economics and demographics.
Dublin regulation specifies that the country where the immigrant enters EU area is responsible to examine the asylum application. So, in case an immigrant from Tunisia lands in Italy then Italy does not allow him to move to France because that would violate the Dublin regulation and France would have any right to send him back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
The result of this agreement is that the countries in South Europe are overwhelmed with immigrants from Africa and Middle East, the vast majority of them would like to go to Germany, France, UK, Sweden, etc.
So, it's strange to me that people in UK complain about immigration problems.
So are you trying to say that the pension shortfall is nothing to do with the fact that one of the first things Gordon Brown did when he became Chancellor was to raid the UK pension funds to the Value of something over £100 Billion .Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
I agree, it is fair to say that this contributed to the problem for some people, but not as much as an ageing population does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tel 911S
But we are digressing from the thread topic here.
So cut they old age pension Jon ?
Just tell me how much the old age pension is Jon !
I didn't say that I advocated cutting the state the pension, I merely stated that it is one option to address the pension shortfall.Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
So if that option is off the table then your other two options are going to be increasing the working population by working for longer or increasing population of working age i.e immigrants.
My pension is £104 per week ,my partners £52 ,so a total of £156
Luckily I did work until I was 73 ,and have provided for my later life ,but £156 is not going to get me many extras !
Do you own your own house?Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
Yes ,and not had a mortgage since 1985 ! As I planned ahead .In life you plan your luck ,your not lucky unless you win the pools or the lottery!
I feel we can be stronger and better out of the EU ,but you don't ! We are all entitled to our opinion,but I feel the majority also feel the same way .How can ONE cap fit all the same people ?
Every country relies on different things to survive Germany has the car industry,France the farming .What does Eire,Greece,and Portugal have ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29754168 this is not a good time for the EU to be asking for £2bn.
That'll pretty much take anyone off the fence who was undecided on the subject before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
I've always been pro-EU and that even makes me go 'WTF, hang on a minute!'Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
So Cameron vows not to pay the bill?
In June he warned that Britain could leave EU in case Juncker was elected.
I'm still waiting to see his response given that Juncker is about to take the office.
Yep. When I heard about it my first impression was that we just refuse to pay it...which is probably what any other country would do. I'm also not quite sure why Germany get a hand out, when they've been held up as being a real example to the rest of us during the downturn over the last 6 years or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
If ever there was a reason to leave this GermanFranco club ,this is it ! Not happy. With 55 million a day ,now the blood suckers want more
Somebody with more IT knowledge than me please set up a voting thing on here and let's see how everybody votes
I think we should be careful not to be too reactionary regarding this. £1.7 billion may sound like a huge figure but if you take into account the decade or so we've been apparently underpaying for, it amounts to a rounding error of about 0.1%.
It should have little or no effect on the economic arguments that overwhelmingly favour us staying in the EU.
However, the whole thing has been badly handled by the UK government and the EU. Some of the people inside the Treasury will have known about this for months or longer, so it shouldn't have been allowed to come as a surprise. And the EU seems to be completely oblivious to the political hot potato that it is at the minute in the UK. Why announce it now when we have a bye-election in a few week where one of the front-running parties is anti-EU?