Bernie troubles

https://eurosport.yahoo.com/news/for...18153--f1.html

so he finally admitted to bribery or extortion, or hush money, taker your pick

if the german got 8 1/2 years in jail for receiving it thenwhat will bErnie get?
I hope this will mean he is out of F1 and that the ridiculously high track fees will be a thing of the past
or that the money will be more evenly spread around and more transparency will take place, thus ensuring the survival of F1 and its teams rather than some secretive" eyes wide shut" style organization where everyone negotiates their personal agreements in an unnatural unbalanced and unfair manner.
I say good riddance. He may have elevated the stature of F1 but it has come at a steep price for the good of the sport, and its fans, least of which are the nasty influx of pay channels that pretty much is killing off the fan base. and virtually no social media or web based products that make too much sense for bernie and his cohorts to do

Tinted rose glasses Mr Truefan.

Mr Bernie never go jail. $$Billions$$ buys many year legal discussion so make no sense to keep attack up.

Bernie will slip out of public lamp light but CVC and other parties move him out. Perhaps he convenient figure head today for politics but he go slowly out later this year and next.

As long as enough people watch F1 on TV to attract advertising revenues, F1 will continue in its present form and the structure Bernie has creatted will survive.

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Originally Posted by D-Type

As long as enough people watch F1 on TV to attract advertising revenues, F1 will continue in its present form and the structure Bernie has creatted will survive.

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It will as long as Bernie doesn't take F1 down with him. His age has meant him moving on has been on the cards for a long while now anyway.

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Originally Posted by MacFeegle

Tinted rose glasses Mr Truefan.

Mr Bernie never go jail. $$Billions$$ buys many year legal discussion so make no sense to keep attack up.

Bernie will slip out of public lamp light but CVC and other parties move him out. Perhaps he convenient figure head today for politics but he go slowly out later this year and next.

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I can barely understand what you are saying
it strikes me that you are a former poster with a new identity trying to sound "different"
nobody writes that way. and your grammar indicates you have a better understanding and command of the language than you are letting on
SMH

Don't lose your own topic , truefan .
You can pretty much figure it out , so if he wishes to post like Tarzan would write , then don't bother to react to the way he posts , but rather to what he posts .

If you don't get it , tell him to explain , rather than bog down your own discussion .


As to that discussion , sure , he admitted even suggesting the payment , but I took it , seemingly , exactly opposite to the way you did .

He said he had suggested it sarcastically , in discussions where it was suggested he had a lot to lose , if the tax man were involved .
As such , if we believe him , it follows logically that the impetus was not from Bernie to keep control , but rather that Gribowski knew that he could shake him down about the tax situation , and at the same time favour Bernie in the negotiations .

As Bernie did end up still in the chair , it seemingly becomes a question of which was the first reason this shake-down occurred .
It is a possibility that Gribowski only arrived at the idea when Bernie suggested it , but it doesn't seem likely , given that there has been testimony that says the word "taxes" was bandied about in the discussions .

Like I said , I took it the opposite way .
I guess that's why they have a judge .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Don't lose your own topic , truefan .
You can pretty much figure it out , so if he wishes to post like Tarzan would write , then don't bother to react to the way he posts , but rather to what he posts .

If you don't get it , tell him to explain , rather than bog down your own discussion .\

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I hear you, just lost my cool for a minute.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

As to that discussion , sure , he admitted even suggesting the payment , but I took it , seemingly , exactly opposite to the way you did .

He said he had suggested it sarcastically , in discussions where it was suggested he had a lot to lose , if the tax man were involved .
As such , if we believe him , it follows logically that the impetus was not from Bernie to keep control , but rather that Gribowski knew that he could shake him down about the tax situation , and at the same time favour Bernie in the negotiations .

As Bernie did end up still in the chair , it seemingly becomes a question of which was the first reason this shake-down occurred .
It is a possibility that Gribowski only arrived at the idea when Bernie suggested it , but it doesn't seem likely , given that there has been testimony that says the word "taxes" was bandied about in the discussions .

Like I said , I took it the opposite way .
I guess that's why they have a judge .

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Well Bernie is a very calculating man and i don't think he would do or say anything in jest when it comes down to money, then proceed to make the payment under the understanding that he maintains his control/power status. It comes down to this. one guy is in jail for one side of the deal and other guy is not, but now in court. And I'd say the both parties should be found equally as guilty under the law. If that means a release from jail and a hefty fine for Gribowski and a hefty fine and ban from F1 business for Bernie, then that is ok. But if Gribowski remains in jail, then what should happen to Bernie if found guilty?

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Originally Posted by truefan72

Well Bernie is a very calculating man and i don;t think he would do it say anything in just when it comes down to money, then proceed to make the payment under the understanding that he maintains his control/power status. It comes down to this. one guy is in jail for one side of the deal and other guy is not, but now in court. And I'd say the both parties should be found equally as guilty under the law. If that means a release from jail and a hefty fine for Gribowski and a hefty fine and ban from F1 business for Bernie, then that is ok. But if Gribowski remains in jail, then what should happen to Bernie if found guilty?

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I'm not an expert or a lawyer, so I don't know, but based on what the article says it may not be that simple.

It sounds like much of the case hinges on the fact that Gribowski was working for a bank that was government owned, and therefore technically a "public official", which is necessary for the charges of bribery and corruption of a public official.

Bernie can argue that he was not aware of Gribowski's status as a public official, and if that is persuasive the bribery charge wont't stick (I think... I'm extrapolating from the article here). On the other hand, Gribowski couldn't have made the same argument; he must necessarily have known what his own status was, and he took a bribe to carry out some specific action in has capacity as a public official.

At least, that's what it sounds like the argument is...

Ask pleas for different explain and I make effort but I no understand hostile. I insult you?

I good understand of language but you not understand. Confuse?

You think I famous member, that ok. I no mind. It make me happy :)

If Bernie would rather pay someone $50m to shut up than pay accountants to explain his tax affairs to the Inland Revenue, then the Inland Revenue should really be looking at his tax affairs.

One of the German papers is saying that Bernie's team of scary lawyers has negotiated a deal to pay $100,000,000.00 to have the whole thing dropped , leaving him clean and ready to lead the parade again .
So , that's fifty to Gribowski , and a hundred to the courts , and some ghastly amount to the scary lawyers as well .


And , the scariest part of all is that he can afford it .

People shouldn't be able to buy themselves out of trouble and should do the time to fit the crime. If Bernie buys his way out of this one it'll demonstrate how corrupt the legal system is and in very public fashion. Bernie should end his days in a cell IMO.

I guess it makes some sort of sense to get your bribery charges dropped by paying people off. Kind of like getting off a murder charge by killing the witnesses.

We're in a stalemate right now. It's not unreasonable to expect that Bernie will die sooner, rather than later. The top level of motorsport has to move past him, it's long overdue. His presence (and a few others) is holding f1 back.

Can I point out here , that Bernie has not been proven guilty ?

It seems like all and sundry have him locked up already , with the key stashed in a very dark place .
And , that's without having heard any of the evidence first hand .

What if he's telling the truth ?
Consider Bernie , seeing Gribowski get sent down for accepting a bribe , knowing it wasn't true .
He would be expecting the same treatment .

He wouldn't give a damn about the extortionist , himself , having been burned for $50 million already .
The scary lawyers are bleeding him , with no real end in sight .

And , the guy has a big pile of money , so it's natural that he would reach for it .

If it were as cut and dried as all here are seemingly thinking , the judge would not likely agree to any deal here .
It seems to me he's picking a course that will have Bernie thinking twice about being involved in such affairs again , unless Bernie has decided now that he actually can't take it with him .

This was expensive , and embarrassing for the big guy .
And , they'll do good things with the fine money .


If this is officially announced in the next few days , it will mean that he was charged , but that the charges were dropped .
That means no admission of guilt , and no decision otherwise .



So , put the noose away .

If Bernie is willing to settle the case with that much money, he has something to hide. He wouldn't be giving away that much over nothing and he could afford to defend himself with the best lawyers in the world if he was innocent.

I hope he is guilty and I hope, along with a lot of people that his time dealing with F1 is numbered.

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If Bernie is willing to settle the case with that much money, he has something to hide. He wouldn't be giving away that much over nothing and he could afford to defend himself with the best lawyers in the world if he was innocent.

I hope he is guilty and I hope, along with a lot of people that his time dealing with F1 is numbered.

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I actually hope he is not guilty. I also hope that any settlement is more to do with his advanced age than the restrictive travel implications of a guilty verdict. :D


I don't know where F1 would be today if Bernie wasn't involved but I do know that F1 has continued to build on its history under his watch and that is a positive thing.

There's plenty to not like about F1 in 2014 but in saying that the "show" at times has been superb.


I'm happy to see Bernie growing old disgracefully and be surrounded by pit girls. If he has to write a $100million cheque to do that - well... [Damn, that's a lot of money. :eek: ]


If the F1 we have today it is to be Bernie's legacy then lets hope he isn't forced to watch it on TV.

He hasn't done too bad. Keeping it all together at times would've been like herding cats.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

I do know that F1 has continued to build on its history under his watch and that is a positive thing.

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What does that actually mean?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What does that actually mean?

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Search me :p

Doesn't anything which ever direction it takes build on its history? :D Otherwise it doesn't exsist anymore.

Anyway, I always think the arguments about where F1 is with Bernie are slightly overplayed. I mean without him F1 would have continued in most probability and safety would still have been improved no matter who ran it.

It might not be where it is now, but that may not have been a bad thing.

But if Bernie is guilty and can pay a massive amount to the courts to escape a custodial sentence ,what message does that send out to the other poor guys ,who are not in half as much trouble,BUT have not got the readies that Bernie has to pay his way out of the shit ?

Let's just hope Bernie gets off because F1 doesn't need another black eye, especially now when things are "supposedly" so bad already. I'm sure $100 is big money even for Bernie, but I'm sure he will pay it gladly. He's already coughed up $40 mil for the bribe/extortion (or whatever it was). Maybe Bernie will even be financially ruined, but we surely don't want to see someone that old (and probably frail) locked up for the rest of his life......not after as much as Bernie had done to pull F1out of the dark ages and into what we have today.

No matter what Bernie did, it's not like this is Nuremberg.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Anyway, I always think the arguments about where F1 is with Bernie are slightly overplayed. I mean without him F1 would have continued in most probability and safety would still have been improved no matter who ran it.

It might not be where it is now, but that may not have been a bad thing.

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Some people would probably be richer, others poorer. Can't say I care.

What I do care a bit about is the fact that F1's image is being harmed by Ecclestone's continued involvement, whether he's guilty or not.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What I do care a bit about is the fact that F1's image is being harmed by Ecclestone's continued involvement, whether he's guilty or not.

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Bernie isn't going to live forever. He's really not looking so good, which is to be expected considering his age and the level of stress he is under. I hope he gets off and disappears, and goes off somewhere to live his last days peacefully. We had a shit sport until Bernie took over, and even if he got rich and really did screw everyone, we are still a lot better off than if he never came along.

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Originally Posted by Doc Austin

We had a shit sport until Bernie took over

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Really? There were aspects that Ecclestone (I refuse just to call him by his first name — after all, I don't know him) did improve, but it was by no means a 'shit sport' prior to his arrival. I'm afraid I have never subscribed to the supposed gratitude — which can often translate into exaggerated praise — that all F1 enthusiasts are meant to display towards him.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

There were aspects that Ecclestone (I refuse just to call him by his first name — after all, I don't know him) did improve, but it was by no means a 'shit sport' prior to his arrival.

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There was zero TV coverage in the US, so to me, that was not very good. Fully 1/3 of the drivers who started the opening Grand Prix of 1971 were dead before the season was over, so I thought that kind of safety record was bad as well. The teams raced hand to mouth, so that was no good either.

It was basically a stupidly expensive, stupidly dangerous sport that got no where near the media coverage it deserved and needed to pull itself into the arena of world class sports. It took Bernie getting the TV package put together that got F1's real commercial success off the ground.

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I'm afraid I have never subscribed to the supposed gratitude — which can often translate into exaggerated praise — that all F1 enthusiasts are meant to display towards him.

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I dunno. Bernie screwed a lot of stuff up too, but for the most part he will certainly leave F1 a whole universe of better than the way he found it.

Gratitude is that Bernie offered each of the teams a buy in after he acquired the TV rights. It was not like he was a greedy bastard tying to steal it all for himself. He offered an equal piece to everyone and no one took him up on it. It's just their tough luck that he made it work.

No one wanted in, so it was all of Bernie's money and all of Bernie's risk and all of Bernie's business savvy that drug the sport out of what was essentially the dark ages.

I'm sure there were lots and lots of dirty deals and I am sure Bernie got his money back over and over and over. Thing is, no one else was wanting to stand up and even take a lame ass stab at making things better, but Bernie laid out his own money to make it work. I'm a bit grateful for that, and you probably should be too.

Of course, you can't give Bernie complete credit for the safety innovations. I think the FIA would have been perfectly happy killing five or six guys a year just as part of doing business, that is, until Jackie Stewart came along. He told everyone how it was too dangerous and then went out and stomped all their asses. Maybe Bernie jumped on a little later, but in the beginning, it was all Stewart.

Anyway, Bernie is old as shit and it's hard to imagine he feels really good, especially with this kind of strain on such an old heart. He might be a tough old bastard, but coughing up $100000000 is enough to give a young dude a heart attack. I can't see Bernie living forever, so if you don't like him, you probably won't have to worry about it too much longer.

Personally I would have rather seen him sell off all his interests, get on a 500 foot Yacht and sail off into the sunset.

I think if you didn't like Bernie, the new guys will probably be even less fun.

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Originally Posted by Doc Austin

Bernie isn't going to live forever. He's really not looking so good, which is to be expected considering his age and the level of stress he is under. I hope he gets off and disappears, and goes off somewhere to live his last days peacefully. We had a shit sport until Bernie took over, and even if he got rich and really did screw everyone, we are still a lot better off than if he never came along.

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I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a shit sport, but Bernie did a great deal to level the playing field of the sport, and allow smaller teams a chance to compete. He also hired Sid Watkins, and took most of Sid's advice on safety issues, making the sport much safer than it had every been prior to them joining forces. Without Bernie, Sid, and several key drivers I personally think a lot more F1 drivers would have found an early grave.

As for the commercialization of the sport, he was the driving force IMO. A great many of us might not have ever seen more than a few races on TV if not for the promotion of the sport which made BE so wealthy. I can hardly fault him for introducing the sport to a much larger audience. And certainly the teams never suffered from getting all that TV revenue either.

Though he has had some ideas I don't care for, overall he had done a huge amount for the sport, and IMO probably more than any other single individual.



And in this current situation, I have no idea who is telling the truth. But I do think that if Bernie went to court to prove his innocence (if we were to assume that is the case) it would probably still do a lot more damage to the F1 image than if he took his current path. Being he's worth somewhere around 4-5 billion, 100 million dollars certainly isn't going to keep him from eating well by any means.

I don't think many F1 fans would deny that Bernie has done some good for F1.

He saw a gap in the market where the sport wasn't really being promoted and a product that could be sold to TV companies that increased the wealth of the sport.

But... Its been a long time since he had the interests of the fans and the people who make the sport what it is. His ventures have expanded and he became incredibly greedy at the expense of those who keep the sport popular. The sport had a rich history way before Bernie came along, and it was this history that helped promote it as a prestigious event, something he built on. He simply raised the profile by increasing its perceived value, a value I think is over hyped. Its only now as he slowly sells off the broadcasting rights to pay TV companies across the world for quick cash that we realise the sport has been popular due to accessibility. Once this accessibility is removed and we see fans forced into a kind of class system where you either pay or don't pay to watch, we realise the demand isn't quite as large as Bernie had hoped. Obviously he's putting a brave, almost arrogant facade because the cash is there and financially nobody has lost out yet, but this business model is treading water.

This is only the tip of the iceberg and when we review all the shady deals Bernie has done over the years, the businessmen and politicians he has bribed, not to mention the circuits he has squeezed, its not surprising it would catch up with him one day. I could see him and Rolf Harris getting on very well counting the painted breeze blocks in the walls of Her Majesty's Hotel. :D

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a shit sport, but Bernie did a great deal to level the playing field of the sport, and allow smaller teams a chance to compete.

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Really? He killed off the privateer entrants almost as soon as he started running things. And he doesn't care one jot for the existence today's smaller teams. After all, he has gone as far as to say he doesn't believe the recent additions have added anything to the sport.

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...I do know that F1 has continued to build on its history under his watch and that is a positive thing.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What does that actually mean?

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F1 has a rich history with Fangio, Brabham, Stewart and Lauda being worthily joined by Schumacher, Alonso, Hakkinen and Vettel. All are synonymous with F1.

Mr Ecclestone's ultimate legacy may very well be that the F1 drivers champion of today is, at worst, the equal of the champion of yesteryear.

F1, under Mr Ecclestone's watch, has managed to change as the times dictate whilst remaining the ultimate career destination for the best drivers on the planet.

That is what building on history means to me. :)

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

F1 has a rich history with Fangio, Brabham, Stewart and Lauda being worthily joined by Schumacher, Alonso, Hakkinen and Vettel. All are synonymous with F1.

Mr Ecclestone's ultimate legacy may very well be that the F1 drivers champion of today is, at worst, the equal of the champion of yesteryear.

F1, under Mr Ecclestone's watch, has managed to change as the times dictate whilst remaining the ultimate career destination for the best drivers on the planet.

That is what building on history means to me. :)

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Bernie is not responsible for these great drivers progressing through their early careers and being picked by great teams who then give them the cars in order to produce great results. The teams have pushed for changes as much as anybody and the FIA (previously FISA) have also had their part in making the sport what it is today. Bernie has had an influence yes, but he also marketed the sport largely for his own gains and has priced many teams out.

The sport was always going to have a rich history. If anything I think the sport has been held back in recent years by not embracing modern trends, especially where fans are concerned. They are so wrapped up in making content unavailable and making sure the F1 website is as basic as possible that they have missed a trick. F1 is at least a decade behind other major sports and its been held back to maximise profit rather than appeal.

And justice was truly assasinated today. The State of Bavaria accepted a 100M bribe to end the trial against Ecclestone for bribery. Someone know a good asylum country for a disillusioned German :(

A bribery case settled with a bribe, you couldn't write it.

Everybody has a price, even the legal system in some countries! lol

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

F1 has a rich history with Fangio, Brabham, Stewart and Lauda being worthily joined by Schumacher, Alonso, Hakkinen and Vettel. All are synonymous with F1.

Mr Ecclestone's ultimate legacy may very well be that the F1 drivers champion of today is, at worst, the equal of the champion of yesteryear.

F1, under Mr Ecclestone's watch, has managed to change as the times dictate whilst remaining the ultimate career destination for the best drivers on the planet.

That is what building on history means to me. :)

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Sorry, but I still think it's a completely meaningless phrase. None of what you describe is at all exceptional. All you're saying is, basically, that the sport has carried on — no more than that.

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Originally Posted by henners88

If anything I think the sport has been held back in recent years by not embracing modern trends, especially where fans are concerned. They are so wrapped up in making content unavailable and making sure the F1 website is as basic as possible that they have missed a trick. F1 is at least a decade behind other major sports and its been held back to maximise profit rather than appeal.

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Exactly. This is one reason why having an 80-something year-old man in charge is so damaging.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Exactly. This is one reason why having an 80-something year-old man in charge is so damaging.

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The age has nothing to do with it. Having a career criminal in charge - that's what damages the sport.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

The age has nothing to do with it.

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It does, surely. How in touch is he with newer generations of viewers? The answer seems to be 'not very', judging by how backward F1 has been in embracing the internet.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

It does, surely. How in touch is he with newer generations of viewers? The answer seems to be 'not very', judging by how backward F1 has been in embracing the internet.

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The only reason why he hasn't embraced faceborg and twatter is, because it cannot be monetized. That is the sole reason. If he could make money with the new media, he would have embraced the raw stuffing out of them.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

It does, surely. How in touch is he with newer generations of viewers? The answer seems to be 'not very', judging by how backward F1 has been in embracing the internet.

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Indeed. He said the sport didn't need viewers, and then he said it did once the viewing figures plummeted lol. The official F1 website is shockingly awful for content with the odd race edit and interview heavily edited. You would think in this day and age the sport would embrace social media, and have a regularly updated YouTube channel etc. They could even offer a subscription service through YouTube like other channels have done. When you consider they pump so much money into closing down video's that contravene copyright, they could accept the exposure and concentrate on delivering something themselves.

The whole of F1 is guilty of this too. The teams are starting to offer better content on websites and at least interact with fans on social media, but they are guilty of failing to embrace the merchandise market and opening themselves up to fans. You can't get near them at GP weekends unless you have a paddock pass and this exclusiveness has crept in, not just because of secrecy, but because its all part of keeping the perceived image of the sport as a playground for the rich and famous. I understand they can't have anybody wandering around the paddock, but as it stands 99% of fans haven't got a hope of getting close to the sport they love. I've been lucky enough to have been in the paddock on a couple of occasions and its so cut off from its public image. The drivers think popping over to the pit wall and giving the grandstand a wave is really giving something back and giving them that energy to keep them humble, yeah right lol.

The whole sport needs an overhaul and one of the biggest problems has been Bernie. He is old skool and out of touch. He's making money for his investors and bunging judges and everything is rosy, but I fear its contributing to the sports decline and being left behind by an era (public) they don't fully understand. :)

This is a pure and simple case of "Affluenza"...

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

The only reason why he hasn't embraced faceborg and twatter is, because it cannot be monetized. That is the sole reason. If he could make money with the new media, he would have embraced the raw stuffing out of them.

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Which demonstrates exactly how out of touch he is.