I guess it´s time for a special topic for the new formula WRC cars which should be decided by FIA quite soon.
4WD or 2WD? NA or turbos? Production cars or limited series?
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I guess it´s time for a special topic for the new formula WRC cars which should be decided by FIA quite soon.
4WD or 2WD? NA or turbos? Production cars or limited series?
Just my 5 cents...
4WD or 2WD - it will stay 4WD in my opinion.
NA or turbos - sure turbos, naturally aspirated engines have been disappearing from production, I think that for example VAG in Europe produces only three naturally aspirated engines - 1.0 I3, 1.2 I3 and 3.6 VR6 and even those may disappear in close future.
Production or limited series - in my opinion the concept will stay same with current WRC/S2000/R5 with a kit car based on a stock car which has otherwise little common with the result; it's definitely the cheapest and easiest way for car manufacturers.
I think there will be some sorts of energy-saving systems implemented whether in a form of KERS known from F1 or something else. It's also likely there may be no anti-lag as it is known now, again purely because of ecologic aspects. I don't say I like that but I see it as inevitable.
I’ve once written in this forum that factory approved homologated is restricting this sport.
It is obvious that there are very few drivers who can compete at the very top level due to expense or lack of available factory seats.
So here’s an idea. Have three championships. One for drivers, one for manufacturers, and one for teams with non-homologated cars that run to the same spec as the factory teams but without the factory ok.
To make this work the specs of the future WRC cars would need to be lowered, below R5 in my opinion to make it cost efficient., backyard workshops don’t have the big budgets for R&D and testing as VW.
This way we could see interesting cars appearing from all corners of the globe, running to the same specs as the official WRC cars but without the ‘officialdom’ of homologation.
Here in NZ in the national championship, which has been long dominated by the presence on Imprezas and Evos, we are just starting to see homebuilt 4WD Turbos appearing in the Championship. Firstly it was Emma Gilmour’s Suzuki Swift. Add to that Hawkswood’s Mazda 2, and soon the Peugeot 208 rocket ship of Alex Kelsey.
In Argentina with the Maxi class, and in Australia with them running Quad bikes (No thanks!). Local championships are widened their horizons to keep there championships healthy, but at the same time are drifting further away from the FIA approved format. Remembering both countries hold a WRC event but how few locals actually have valid cars to run in them?
So to summarise, if the new FIA WRC formula could be lower spec and be both approved for factories and tuners/backyards builds to compete on equal footing on the WRC stages we may see some growth once again.
Plus the interest from factories if a homebuild is doing well on the stages could be rewarded with financial and technical assistance.
You are right about the homologations but unfortunately I don't see FIA changing this in near future. Maybe if the experiment with RGT was successful... but it has been 1,5 years since non-homologated GT cars are allowed in FIA rally events but we have seen one single car in Rallye Monte Carlo and that's all. I'm afraid FIA will use this fail as a justification to keep only homologated cars.
Rgt is far to expensive also.
Gt3 is also expensive to buy and run.
RGT by rules is defined as almost stock car without need for homologation. How can You create reasonably cheaper formula than that? Nobody says You must use Porsche...
I agree with Mirek on the engine issue, the days of N/A 2.0 OR 2.5 (the much loved in the UK and Ireland) Millington Diamond type engines are gone, in a few years time 1.6l will be considered a large capacity, the future common engine will probably be 3 cylinder 1000cc forced induction with other energy recovery.
Also consider that by 2020 with all emissions and other restrictions it will be difficult for a rally car to be on the public highway, already in France rally cars are not road registered and have their competition number instead of tradional number plates.
My feeling is that the future will be R5 4WD 1.6t - having said that I fear the formula wont solve the issues - of specatcle / noise etc.
Fundamentally I think the balance between power and grip of the current cars is too perfect, I would like to retain the current power level in a 2WD car or give a 4WD car more power, it shouldnt be hard, Citroen have got 50 or 60 bhp more out of the rally engine in the C Elysee WTCC car.
I also quite like the way the new WTCC cars look with wings splitters and body kits.
Please consider these facts in the debate.
I fear more of the same. I’m not sure that’s what the WRC needs. I agree with DR – cars need to look and sound spectacular. The current cars are ‘production based’, but are really prototypes, so why not go the whole way and make proper prototypes? Problem is they cost.
As MJW correctly said, the cars will not solve the problem; they simply don’t have the ‘X Factor’.
It would be nice to start with a blank sheet of paper and ask all interested Manufacturers what would it need for them to join the WRC.
I think that generally too much weight is placed on technical rules for cars. In my opinion there shall be much more discussion about calendar, about the form of each event etc. For example in my opinion the standardized format was a wrong step. Rallying from its nature brings variety (in surfaces, scenery, people). It shall make maximum use from the variety while it's the opposite in reality. That's why I would suggest to give organizers the biggest possible freedom. If one wants to run the event over the whole country why not? If other wants to have for example a complete night leg why not? There's no need for 13 events in calendar. If there is just 8 but really big events it would be better. By really big I mean that such event shall ideally be No.1 sporting event in the country in the time. That's the case for Monte Carlo, for Argentina or Finland. The other thing is off course media promotion which has been quite horrible in last years.
Everybody speaks about WRC being too expensive but in my opinion far more important is what it offers. If You make the best steaks around people come and pay for it and nobody asks why it is more expensive than McDonald.
Nail on head there Mirek!!
Totally agree with you Mirek, but unfortunately I cant see this happening (at least not in the near future). They have tried too desperately to force the sport to grow and destroyed its own nature during the last 1 1/2 decade. I too agree that a step backwards may be the wiser choice, and the car technical regulations do not really matter after all if the sporting side is right
I find it ironic that person most responsible for the current WRC, (DR) has now decided that it’s not working, and that we should go back to its roots. The ‘clover-leaf’/ 9-5 format was to enable TV to produce nightly reports. With current technology you can have more expansive routes – butt do organisers, teams, etc really want this?
Totally agree. I've wrote a very similar post a few days ago.
We can always be talking about the need for new and exciting cars, but current 1.6T WRC cars have only 3 and a half years! Somehow it's like wishing to replace our girlfriend just because we keep looking for a sexier girl...not very mature!
Gr. 4 was the top category for 10 years, Gr. A was also there for 10 years, WRC 2.0 for 14 years and Gr. B was the unfortunate exception in this stability record (only 4 years), as we all know.
Our forum mate 'giu tutto' made this sharp observation:
"When lot of people are interested about the product, the media and the money will be there also. And when there is lot of people, media and money, the manufacturers will be there also, for sure".
This is really what we all (from hardcore fans like us to the FIA guys) should be looking to: the essence of the 'rally product'!
Is this essence mainly linked with the type of car or the driver profile or even the manufacturer status? Probably not; maybe it has more to do with the outstanding level of human challenge that a rally course can provide.
If we ease the level of this challenge, turning it into a sort of ‘day at the office effort’, will certainly have find a way to alienate the rally product. That’s what we've been steadily doing for the last two decades!
I agree, that would make the cars so much more interesting - even if every other technical aspect of the cars were the same. The biggest issue I have, as a fan, of the current cars (not necessarily the rulebook) is that there isn't enough variety in the bodyshape. We used to have 3door hatchbacks, 5 door hatchbacks, 5 door fastbacks (Octavia WRC), 3 door coupes (Celica), 2 door coupes (1997 Impreza) and 4 door saloons, though not all at the same time
No thanks!! End of.
On the other hand rally is like horse racing or sailing; there is a skill, a tool and circumstance. Of course very skilful driver will do miracles even with lawn mower, but it’s sounds little bit weird to say, that there’s no matter about the technical rules at the top level of rally. How on earth the sporting side will be alright, if the most skilful drivers prefer to choose some other motorsport and we will get only the driver with the thickest wallet to the rally?
There was a time, when FIA and manufacturers had the best steaks in town, but they became too greedy. They thought that people will come again, no matter who make the steaks. They took new chefs, because everybody wanted to be a famous chef at the famous restaurant. They even found out that people would like to pay, if they only got a chance to be the chef. It was a horrible mistake. There was only one wise restaurant, a French kitchen, which decided to take the best chef only, no compromises...
When the customers are gone, it takes lot of time and work to get them back. In that point it's good to remember, what was "the thing", why they had come there before.
A R5+ would be nice but it seems the R5s have some reliability problems, at least in the beginning.
Imo we don’t need at least yet any hybrids which would make the cars more expensive and heavier. Last Monday there was an article in a newspaper (Helsingin Sanomat) about Japanese manufacturers and two universities working together to develop a diesel engine with 30% less carbon dioxide emissions until 2020. At the end of the article was a mention about a survey made by Fuji Kenzai Group. By that survey 89% of the cars would still use a combustion engine in 2030.
There’s been suggestions also for prototypes (which in fact they already are, except the body shell) in this thread but at least I like to recognize the make by the look. How is it with the panel materials (cheap ones) for prototypes these days? How safe are they in case of fire?
Coupe / GT (not some “super” GTs like Porsche, Ferrari etc.) models would be refreshing and distinctive from these “family” road cars which are base for the WRC cars. I remember in the 60s when the BMC drivers usually drove with Minis but now and then with an Austin Healey.
You've made me think of another up-in-the-clouds dream situation: 2 different cars that each manufacturer must homologate - one event VW could compete with two Polos, the next two Sciroccos and then another event split depending on which driver preferred which car. But I am not insane and know nothing like that will ever happen!
Bigger cars please, then hopefully more diverse body shapes. AMG A45 WRC would be a nice size car:
To me “the thing” was rally adventurous side with challenging routes and extreme schedules.
Taking the ‘Rallye de Portugal’ example, back in the 70’s and the 80’s we had a rally course spreading at almost all of the country, with long (up to 14 hours) hard legs using day and night diversified stages, on all sorts of gravel and tarmac roads.
This highly demanding layout created an exciting atmosphere (sometimes a little bit out of control…) with a massive attachment from the Portuguese people - schools and business simply shut down at rally day!
Above all, there was a genuine devotion to the driving heroes and a huge acclamation of their ‘over human’ capacities. This is why nowadays Alen and Mouton still are more famous than Gronholm or Loeb!
Maybe we can’t go back to those days*, some would suggest they’re economically impractical (at the sometime we see the VIP areas and motorhomes growing in ‘pharaonic’ style), but we should clearly recognize that the ‘9 to 5 clover leaf format’ modern rallyes can’t simply produce public attachment, and, by consequence, general media appropriate coverage.
So, what can we expect from future? Unfortunately Tod’s intention on reviving the endurance rally spirit seems to have disappeared. In his place we'll probably have Capito's shootout scheme that'll definitely convert WRC into a sprint, x-games lookalike, series, mocking on a rich 40 years old history…
*We could reinvent it by using multinational rallyes, enlarging and spreading the Sweden/Norway example. Instead of 13 anonymous events, we could have 8 or 9 highly recognized rallyes, a sort of ‘mini dakars’, which would easily get media attention.
Plus one. Thumbs up.
So sad to see a great sport ruined by such people.. From a truly exiting country wide adventure to just another little show of little cars virtually no different than boring circuit racers.
From something we could dream of doing to just another product where we are supposed to "consume" it.
Screw Capito..
Best possible headine: Capito Kaput
I have been a rally fan for over 30 years, but I do not like the way the sport has gone in the past few years.
good line motorsport vehicles are usually spaceframe - dakar, dtm, nascar. Australian supercar, nzst, nz-tlx, trophy truck etc.
I think wrc should be spaceframe to a uniform spec - like nascar. The emphasis should be on crew and efficient powertrains. Spaceframe is supposedly less difficult to repair after crashes.
http://www.mrx.co.nz/#!mrx-builds/c158d (NZ - tlx on jig )
http://youtu.be/mjU__B6Oaes (Nascar robot weld) use a robot to turn them out.
http://news.motorsport.org.nz/achiev...-tlx-v8-field/ (get engine parity to level the playing field)
Fia financial auditor to keep on eye on the books.
Balance the the carbon footprint - the wrc forest, use biofuels.
Rallycross Supercars seems to offer a good combination off "bang for the buck".
Cheaper cars with a bigger difference between grip level and horsepower (less grip, more power) and a more sensual experience regarding sight, sound and smell, could be a way forward.
Spaceframes is cheap to manufacture and run, and would offer a very flexible alternative.
This would also make the playing field more even, beqause things like suspension travel etc would all be the same. Then You could decide how many of the components that should be "open", like dampers, gearbox, engine, diffs etc. And one could also do like in V8 Supercars where You could have an unbranded alternative to those who was not able or willing to develop their own components like an engine.
This seems to be the way a lot of series are heading, and it might be a reason for that;)
9 Years of Loeb supremacy has, togheter with bad promotion, done that the value of the TV-rights and the whole WRC-series has fallen quit dramatically. With more manufacturers, more drivers, stiffer competition, and more sight and sound, we can turn this around. But there are big positives happening, lets not forget that. Volkwsagen, Hyundai, maybe Toyota etc.
Also the fact that Hyundai is opperating like the factory teams of old, testing out multiple drivers etc, is also a BIG contribution to the sport. So good things are happening! :)
The things You mention about balancing the carbon footprint are also very important. To have the teams buy forest in ex Brazil, and call it "The WRC Forest" would be a very good idea, this should be done right now.
If the factories made bodyshells available for anyone interested the cars might be cheap even without spaceframed cars. Of course in both cases the look of the cars would be as the original model from the brand.
I don't share the opinion that a way forward is in making cars basically same aside their look. In fact I don't like that at all. By that motorsport looses one of its fundamentals which is the engineering genius. Already the existing rules are making all cars basically same. The size, layout, main functional things, all operates same way in all WRC cars. The differences are in particular details but in nothing major. That's exactly opposite to how it used to be in the past. Mini bringing small nimble FWD to victory, Audi bringing 4WD or semi-automatic gearbox, Lancia bringing mid-engine RWD or two-level supercharging, Peugeot bringing mid-engine 4WD... all that and much more would never happen if the rules fix all cars in the same scheme.
+1, completely agree with Mirek. In fact, I would hate a silhouette formula. Unfortunately that diversity of engineering solutions we had in the past, now we don't have anymore and cars are much more similar to each other, but I think it would be extremely boring to have cars all the same except the look. Diversity is a reason why I like to follow national championships, I like to see S2000 vs N4 vs 2WD and others...
Motorsport needs diversity - which is one if the things I love about the WEC. Audi, Toyota, Porsche and now Nissan will all have something different as a solution to the question. The WRC like F1, WTCC doesn't have this; all WRCars have a 1.6T engine with 4WD...... I know technology is expensive - but this is a World Championship - if the returns are better then it's possibly worth it. Which again returns us to the promotion problem.
To achieve this one could go down a completly different route, and that is to give the teams a more difficult objective.
The problem with the lack of diversity is due to the high level of grip, with the 4WD, suspension travel, and tires, wich ends up with a situation where You have to take away more and more of the "bang" (Power.)
Alt 1)
- Rear wheel drive.
- Limited suspension travel.
- No rules for the engine. Only weight/hp/Nm
- Spaceframe of own fabrication
- No rules for aerodynamics. Only make a square, ex from 30 cm in front of the car, 10 cm to the side, 30 cm from the top, and a no go zone from the windscreen to the end of the hood.
- Limited top speed
Alt 2)
- Four wheel drive.
- Limited suspension travel.
- No rules for the engine. Only weight/hp/Nm
- Spaceframe of own fabrication
- No rules for aerodynamics. Only make a square, ex from 30 cm in front of the car, 10 cm to the side, 30 cm from the top, and a no go zone from the windscreen to the end of the hood.
- Very hard tires with narrow grooves to limit grip.
- Limited top speed
Here we could see pure prototypes, and a lot of different approaches to find the right formula.
ie. If You take away grip, You can ad a lot of power, aerodynamics, etc etc.
If we thinking about environment, maybe the way of thinking should be favoring 1.0t engine since you can have lower weight, vs heavier car and 2.0t?
You have a certain amount of km's to drive with a certain amount of fuel. With lesser grip, aerodynamics like today, half the suspensiontravel, more sound, more sideways, more environment thinking and so on, maybe the package would fit public and media better?
Rallying only became massively popular with the general public in the 1980's with the advent of Group B.
The only way it can do this again is with more spectacular 'supercars', not just shopping cars with stickers on.
Rallycross RX is going to overtake WRC rallying for TV and being popular with the public unless it competes using more exciting better looking cars.
I still follow rallying because I have loved it since Group B... but I dont expect many new young fans to do the same with the current cars.
Sorry, that's nonsense. It was popular in the days before---for example we had even heard of rally all the way over in the USA. We knew names of the drivers, we knew the cars---some of us even dug into crap like what final drive and gearbox ratios they used...we knew events...it came in different media---magazines and books and TV even and we could see BIG crowds in the woods in the background...
Perhaps you might be more accurate to say "I became a BIG fan when I saw the GpB cars"
You are right. Actually here in Eastern block we had almost zero B12 cars as 99% of stock cars were built to be cheap small-engine ones with the only exception being limousines for government officials but rallying was still hugely popular sport here, definitely more than now (at least in Czechoslovakia), the same was before gr.B era. One of the reason is that rallying here in that time was really a motorsport for everybody, it was very cheap with large government support. There was a system of "leagues" where the base level was competing with almost stock cars and every advance to next level was allowed only for the successful ones.
I was just explaining to a young guy---and showing him actual results of the Skodas back in "the bad ol days" *of the 'old regime" (how do you guys refer to that time?), and told him about a crazy Russian I met who came from near Leningrad and how in summer they would have short sprint-y rallys sometimes on a Thursday night (I think Thursday is Payday---maybe they were trying to give guys to do other than get totally drunk? Who knows) rally and he said "We have 320 cars entered. 95% were Lada but a few others, even a couple Skoda--they were GOOD! but most Lada home modified...but still 320!!!! and everybody has 5-7 friends and it was BIG show"
He went on to tell me of the methods used to get heads and carbs and shocks from Italy via extremely "un-official" means..
I had a good friend here in Seattle who was Polish and who told me about rally in Poland "in the bad ol' days"...VERY popular....and no Group B cars..and how there was big upswing when Group A came along..
And in all these there always was some government support.....even in Sweden where I spent a long time cities and counties gave support in the form of land and loan of equipment and even money direct to the motor-clubs..
All Power to the Motor-clubs!
* the guy was shocked to see how John Haugland did in 130 Super Estelle against GpB supercars!
Brundza and a few others from behind the iron curtain competed on the 1000 lakes, acropolis and sweden with ladas and moskvitch, The Ladas even took part in NZ. http://tinyurl.com/lhuzoaa
The Russian rally championship events limited numbers.
There is a skoda entered in this year's Silver Fern Rally.
Homolgation - How much does it cost a manufacturer to homologate a car for World Rallycross against the homologation cost of WRC ? Saab and Audi are in Rallycross but would be very unlikely to have an official car in WRC.
Some news by Autosport on the planned changes for 2017
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115101
To me if this concept gets the go-ahead it will bring some more interest into the sport. Although the big question is whether the manufacturers will like it to spend money on completely new concepts
If they let them have any engine they like and move to the d segment why did they bother with ristricting the engine capacity to 1.6 supermini????