The great man passes away RIP
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520
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The great man passes away RIP
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520
A wonderfully brave and inspiring man.
RIP
The worlds best loved terrorist is dead. You'll excuse me for not shedding a tear.
Wow. Just wow
Several people suggested this was due on another thread, not that we didn't know his time was near. He meant more than martin Luther King meant in the US although maybe if King had a full life lived, would be as accomplished as Mandela. Rest in Pax my man, your life experience makes you my hero,
You ensured our nation had a peaceful transition to democracy and freedom for all. Your humbleness, forgiveness, humility, humanitarianism and love was appreciated by all the people in our nation, black and white.
To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is not to die. Your life and legacy will be celebrated for generations to come.
Tata Madiba Tata!
To see the reaction worldwide is something but to see a South African perspective is always interesting as his great input affected you the most. I know a few South Africans now living in the UK who are showing an outpouring on Social media this morning and very grateful to Mandela and what he achieved. A tough life but a productive one too. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
RIP Mandela
I see pride
I see power
I see a bad ass mutha who don't take no crap from nobody!
RIP President Nelson Mandela
Lol, not surprised to see you're still as bitter as ever. Or that you're the kind of person who would bend over to your oppressors and let them f**k you in the ass. Fortunately, some people, like Mr Mandela, never saw it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Let's not ruin the thread. Daniel is entitled to his opinion regardless of how unpopular it is. Mandela wasn't everybody's hero :)
He is indeed entitled to it (although I doubt he'd ever stand up for himself to defend such rights). And here's mine: he has a pathetic baditude.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Mandela can not be faulted. Yes he did bad things in his younger years, but who doesn't when they are fighting against oppression? He did what he had to back then. What he said, did and achieved after his release from jail was quite remarkable. I would not have been able to show the restraint and forgiveness that he did, he was a far bigger man then I could ever wish to be.
For a time the ways and means were questionable and morally dubious.Quote:
Originally Posted by webberf1
Those who do use aggression and terrorism justify it for a greater cause. As the saying goes one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
When it is Martin McGuiness or Gerry Adam's time the commentary and opinions will undoubtedly be much more colourful.
BTW - Why is it most have to be ultra-respectful to the deceased as most people's lives aren't exactly black and white?
Quote:
Originally Posted by webberf1
and here's my opinion of you, you're a ignorant person who comes from a country which is more or less 100% ignorant to what went on in SA as long as it happened to a white person.
http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-yo ... n-mandela/
Thanks for defending my right to an opinion Henners :)Quote:
The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal.
I completely agree with everything other than that he shouldn't be faulted. History should be an honest account of what happened and not simply a collection of facts that only tell one side of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
You know what I learnt in school in Australia? That the Boer wars were fought over "miners rights" :rolleyes: Oh how I laughed at the teacher and refused to take part in his revisionist lesson.
555, in SA you all know what went on, for some reason in the UK and particularly in Australia, there seems to be a belief that Mandela was locked up because he was black and part of a political movement opposed to Apartheid. You and I both know this isn't true.
The worst thing we can do with this mans life is to act as if he were perfect and never did any wrong.
Also, why the hell did WebberF1 say I was bitter? Bitter about what?
Few outside SA care to know/realise that Mandela was a poor President who left an awful legacy especially for the ANC.
Similar resentments can be said of Aung San Suu Kyi. Burma has deep internal divisions, sectarianism, between Muslim minority and Buddhists.
This more or less sums up the thoughts of the rest of the world when it comes to white South AfricansQuote:
Originally Posted by wedge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeDk6ZeGNnU
Says the kettle.Quote:
Originally Posted by webberf1
Wedge, I share your sentiments entirely. Would the same people who hailed the death of Bobby Sands be as sentimental to his cause as they are to Mandela? A rhetorical question.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
For sure, a great personality.
RIP
I think you should get off your high kangaroo webberf1Quote:
Originally Posted by webberf1
Australia has done truly horrible things to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations
They continue to be some of the most disadvantaged people in the first world
https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=cr&ei= ... ustralians
In my experience of living in Australia I found it to be a massively arrogant country which is happy to take swipes at other countries and gloss over its own imperfections. Yes Apartheid was massively wrong, but Australia didn't really treat its indigenous people any better and still treats them like crap.
Read the statistics on sexual violence in South Africa and you'll realise that South Africa isn't the rainbow nation that people think it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_vio ... uth_Africa
One woman is raped every 36 seconds. Think about that..... 2 or 3 women were raped in SA while you read this post. Don't pretend that Mandela took South Africa from a place where whites crapped on blacks to a place where everyone lives in harmony. He was a great man and did a better job than a lot would do, but South Africa is still a place that most want to get away from.
I had a liberal Saffer as a co-worker from about 10 years ago. He was saying how bad it could be to live, how great it was for blacks to get the same opportunities as whites but came at a price with affirmative action so he had to move back to the UK. Unbelievable when I first heard it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Do you try really hard to make yourself look clueless or does it just come naturally? I love how you've just jumped to the assumption that I'm a hypocrite (and presumably some 'Aussie pride' bogan) on the issue of blacks in South Africa solely because I come from Australia. It's almost, and I do say almost, as dumb as the time Spafranco immediately assumed I was some neoconservative republican fanboy, masquerading as an American solely because I pointed out how obviously disastrous the Obama Administration has been.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Like your buddy Spa, I'm here to bring you back to reality. No one will be as quick as me to admit Australia's utterly disgusting history when it comes to this land's indigenous people, and race relations with our Asian neighbours. In fact, for most of history we were far, far worse and more appalling than South Africa! So much so in fact that when Woodrow Wilson wanted to veto Japan's requests for racial equality in the League of Nations, he essentially went to Australia, ahead of South Africa, to do the dirty work. Also a good reason for why we to a large degree deserved Japan's hostility to us in the years that followed. Want me to go on about how this country supported the confederates in the Civil War, or how its national pride in reference to Gallipoli is often based on complete myths?
Again, get a clue. You're dealing with someone who has a massive passion for racial equality and improvement of quality of life for indigenous people - and has put his actual time and effort into contributing towards that.
My point is this, don't you make completely false assumptions about me, based on nothing but my nationality, just because you can't make a proper, independent argument for crap, and continue to undermine yourself by maintaining your poor and bitter attitude.
It's people like you who make the following pic true, and why you're really not worth the effort https://images.encyclopediadramatica.es ... ternet.jpg
But to anyone who has a small enough grip on reality (or knowledge of history) to simply dismiss mandela as some useless terrorist - if you're going to dismiss Mandela as a useless terrorist then you should also dismiss the French resistance against Nazi occupation as useless terrorists (and the French didn't have it half as bad as what the Blacks and other races had it under apartheid).
Mandela was an incredibly humble individual who would be the first to admit he made some bad mistakes. And he was as imperfect as any other human being. But in his long battle against one of the most brutal, oppressive regimes of all time, he did some incredibly good things.
Are there problems in South Africa today? Yes, HUGE problems. But to blame Mandela for that is not only ignorant, it's downright pathetic. What do you expect when 90% of a country's population have been brutally suppressed for generation after generation, then are suddenly granted freedom. Do you really expect everything to suddenly be fine and dandy 20 years later? The same problem occurs anywhere when a once oppressed people are granted freedom, there will be a socioeconomic divide for generations to come - because in our world today, class mobility is tragically very limited. The fact that there are massive problems in no way justifies the former oppression, nor diminishes the need to break down that oppression.
Are we clear? Good. Thankyou.
Much like others have done at various times in different parts of the world, Mandela laid a framework that gave people the opportunity for equality in South Africa. And like others, being humans, some of the solutions were imperfect. None of those individuals who did such things could control the will of every person, perfect every imperfection, nor create a perfect world.
But in my opinion, they did much, much more than the average human could be expected to do. For that I can't fault such humans.
I certainly hope that history will show the significance of Mandela and his sacrifice and loyalty to his causes.
I think this discussion went a bit downhill when criticisms were made based on the history of certain posters country of origin. I've been on the receiving end of things like that in the past where someone has criticised shameful things Great Britain has done throughout history. My answer to that is, what the hell has that got to do with me? I don't need to apologise for things people from my country did years before I existed. Stuff that, I'm not guilty or responsible. I will share opinions on my admirations for people who I respect in history though. Why not? :)
I never said he was a useless terrorist, I merely said that he was one. You made this up.Quote:
Originally Posted by webberf1
I also I also never said that the current problems justified the past oppression. You made this up.
How is it ignorant to blame Mandela partly for the problems that exist today? He was the PM for 5 years and presided over a country that became more violent and less economically prosperous as a whole.
It could have been much worse, he could have been a Julius Malema, but it should have been better.
The issue here is that like most Australians you were fed on only a diet of pro-ANC information during the Apartheid era. At least in the UK there was somewhat more of a balance of information.
Are we clear that you make things up to make others appear to say unspeakable things? Good. Thankyou.
It's not quite like that though. You can understand the anger that people display towards Britain right? Hell, a lot of Welsh people still have a chip on their shoulder about it. My point regarding Webberf1's origin is that in that particular country there was practically NEVER any mention of the actual reason Mandela was imprisoned, it was always said that he was jailed for "opposing the Apartheid regime" which could mean anything from a peaceful Gandhi type protest to a full blown Taliban style insurgency. Thankfully the BBC do actually make reference to why Mandela was imprisoned.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
When people aren't fed the whole story then they tend to react angrily (as webberf1 did) to the truth coming out about a man who by his own admission wasn't perfect, but who was painted as perfect by the media in some countries.
It is only right that you share your opinions and admiration for historical figures and I applaud the fact that you defended my right to do so as well.
The problem is that I lived 23 years of my life in Australia, I know how one sided the media were when it came to South Africa and you are merely a product of that, the mere mention of Mandela being a terrorist and you call me bitter and make out that I think the current situation justifies Apartheid. People's nationality does have a lot to do with how they think and feel, do you think many South Africans, Indians, Maori's or people from former colonies think that the British Empire was a great thing? It won't surprise you to know that some British people DO think that it was, they won't come out and say that slavery or going into countries and stealing their natural wealth was great, but that WAS part of it. Apartheid was never justified, end of story, but Mandela's imprisonment was justified..... if Aborigines started sabotaging infrastructure and launching terrorist attacks on innocent Australians, would you want them put in jail?Quote:
Originally Posted by webberf1
My point was that Australia as a whole has a holier than thou attitude when it comes to the treatment of indigenous people, but the way it treated and continues to treat its indigenous inhabitants is quite shameful. I don't blame you for this one bit, but if the Aborigines started rising up and killing white Australians, I certainly wouldn't think that this was in any way justified. Now obviously because Australia isn't perfect that doesn't mean Australians shouldn't voice their opinions on other countries and how they treat their indigenous peoples, but perhaps you should move out of the glass house before you start throwing stones.
Lol, can anyone believe this guy? Still running with that same line of thought that since I'm Australian, I have certain inherent attitudes, and have obviously been overly influenced by the media here to hold certain views.
In this country, 80% of the media believed Tony Abbott was exactly what the doctor ordered after the 'disastrous' Labor years, 98% believes Obama is doing just fine and is one of the best US presidents of all time, 99% believe the global economy is 'back on track' in steady recovery mode since the GFC, and all but 100% believe in the aforementioned Gallipoli myths. Somehow, I believe in none of those things. There's a reason why I'm now keenly studying International Relations at the honours level, and it's because I love critically analysing history and contemporary affairs, and being able to determine who wants you to think what rather than towing some media-driven line of opinion.
The only way I can justify you not getting the point of why I admire Mandela, is because you genuinely seem like the kind of person who got beat up at school and did practically nothing to really stand up for yourself rather than sulk about it. Fortunately, Mandela was of the opposite spectrum of humanity - the kind who didn't take shit, stood up for freedom (rather than hid behind it), and then even more rare by human standards was that he offered forgiveness to his most brutal oppressors when the tables of power were turned (otherwise, he probably would have been a Mugabe-type). The wrongs he did as an early liberation leader genuinely weigh little compared to the massive good he achieved.
Exactly. The moment someone stereotypes based on a person's nationality, you immediately know they have very limited capacity for proper debate. And as you say, you can't be held accountable for your ancestors' sins. The important part, for example for me as an Australian, is that I recognise that what I enjoy in life today largely stems from what was brutally stolen from another culture in years long passed. Same with Americans. Or any number of European countries, whose high-ranking positions in the world today stem from a time when they gained that advantage by brutal colonial domination. From that recognition stage we can then put in our own time and effort to help and reconcile with these associated cultures, and do whatever we can to heal old wounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
EDIT: Anyways, I somehow think danny boy's pride is going to keep f**king with his chances of seeing the situation fairly. Therefore, 'thats all folks' for me in this debate (if you can call it that).
You seem very keen to make blanket statements about me such as the followingQuote:
Originally Posted by webberf1
1. I'm bitter. You never answered why.
2. That I said he was a useless terrorist. I never said this.
3. That I feel that the current issues mean Apartheid was justified.
4. That I don't think you should be able to admire him.
5. That I got bullied at school and did nothing about it. I mean wtf?
You seem unable to make a genuine argument so you go around making personal digs at people and putting words in their mouth. I said Mandela was a terrorist, I never said that no one could admire him and I didn't deny that he did a lot of good. things.
I never criticised you based on your origin, I simply stated that you come from a country (don't forget I was born and raised there too) that never told the whole story of Mandela in the media just as you feel they didn't tell the whole story about Abbot. Again you're putting words in my mouth and intentions in my heart. I said that growing up in Australia makes it hard for anyone to understand the true story of Mandela. In Australia his imprisonment was sold as being purely because he opposed the Apartheid regime and not because he was involved in terrorism which was the case. Mandela was offered the chance to get out if he renounced violence http://www.sahistory.org.za/dated-event ... ase-prison, he turned this down and even when released stated that the armed struggle must go on.Quote:
Originally Posted by webberf1
Feel free to make up things about me and insinuate that I beat my wife or some other such silly things if you don't have a proper answer to my points.
Permit me to add to this that I also don't need to apologise for things people from my country do these days although I (still) exist and am contemporary with them. I'm also not guilty or responsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
WEBBERF1 Do you try really hard to make yourself look clueless or does it just come naturally? I love how you've just jumped to the assumption that I'm a hypocrite (and presumably some 'Aussie pride' bogan) on the issue of blacks in South Africa solely because I come from Australia. It's almost, and I do say almost, as dumb as the time Spafranco immediately assumed I was some neoconservative republican fanboy, masquerading as an American solely because I pointed out how obviously disastrous the Obama Administration has been.
Like your buddy Spa, I'm here to bring you back to reality. No one will be as quick as me to admit Australia's utterly disgusting history when it comes to this land's indigenous people, and race relations with our Asian neighbours. In fact, for most of history we were far, far worse and more appalling than South Africa! So much so in fact that when Woodrow Wilson wanted to veto Japan's requests for racial equality in the League of Nations, he essentially went to Australia, ahead of South Africa, to do the dirty work. Also a good reason for why we to a large degree deserved Japan's hostility to us in the years that followed. Want me to go on about how this country supported the confederates in the Civil War, or how its national pride in reference to Gallipoli is often based on complete myths?
Again, get a clue. You're dealing with someone who has a massive passion for racial equality and improvement of quality of life for indigenous people - and has put his actual time and effort into contributing towards that.
My point is this, don't you make completely false assumptions about me, based on nothing but my nationality, just because you can't make a proper, independent argument for crap, and continue to undermine yourself by maintaining your poor and bitter attitude.
It's people like you who make the following pic true, and why you're really not worth the effort https://images.encyclopediadramatica.es ... ternet.jpg[/quote]
Webber, do the forum a favor and stick to the topic. Stop adjudicating what you believe as though it were fact. Stop dragging the forum down and using me as your puppet in doing so. You seem to believe that you have this considerable knowledge of the beliefs and presumed thoughts of other forum members. Believe me Webber, you are as inconsequential to me as Mark Webber was to Red Bull. You trumpet ultra right wing jargon and then use your bully pulpit to deflect from your tripe and insensitive posts.
Keep your comments with reference to me in posts directly to me. Don't draw Daniel into your obvious narcissistic belief that you know so much as to put us as politically aligned. I don't know the man and I doubt he knows me. However, let me tell you this I find his posts to be intellectually superior to your right wing blather while trying to convey an argument that is more racist than it is political. You fool not one.
Beautiful sentiments 555Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by anfield5