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Scottish Independence
I remember a thread with this title was one of the last threads posted on the old vbulletin forum back in December 2006!
But it's now finally coming to pass with detailed proposals being laid out today for the referendum in September 2014.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-25088251
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Re: Scottish Independence
A bit off the subject, but a few weeks ago when our Boks played the Scots I remembered how great the Scottish national anthem is :) Nice slow swaying beat and words that well up in the chest. A proud nation with a tumultuous history.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by Mark
I remember a thread with this title was one of the last threads posted on the old vbulletin forum back in December 2006!
You've got a bad memory. It was in 2009. :p
http://www.motorsportforums.com/view...f=104&t=136005
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Re: Scottish Independence
Free them from our evil English rule!!!
I'm sure £1000 a year more in income tax is worth all that. :D
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
There's been more than one ;)
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Re: Scottish Independence
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The Scottish government said Scotland's finances were healthier than those of the UK, providing a strong foundation to put the focus of the referendum campaign on Scotland's future.
But can they balance their budget? Oh that's right they're Scots! :D :devil: ;)
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Re: Scottish Independence
Any attempt even the most honorable one at an independent Scotland would end the same way as Northern Ireland.
All one has to do is view the sectarian divide. It is vitriolic just as it is in Northern Ireland.
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Re: Scottish Independence
Would they switch to the Euro, too?
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by Gregor-y
Would they switch to the Euro, too?
No because they'd have to take on Europe's debt. It would have to remain Bank of England.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by henners88
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Originally Posted by Gregor-y
Would they switch to the Euro, too?
No because they'd have to take on Europe's debt. It would have to remain Bank of England.
The Deputy First Minister was basically saying this morning that they were prepared to take their share of the UK debt as long as they were able to remain in currency union. She didn't say that they would wash their hands of it if they didn't keep the pound but it was strongly implied.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by Gregor-y
Would they switch to the Euro, too?
Most emphatically not.
Scottish banks currently have the power to issue currency based on the reserves that they hold. If Scotland were to join the Euro, Scottish banks would be forced to buy back all the currency on issue and second to that, there is no way in Hades that Brussels would ever allow private firms in Scotland to issue Euros.
Besides which, with all the revenues from gas and oil, the independent Scottish Pound would in all likelihood be the hardest currency... IN THE WORLD*
They wouldn't just have a hard currency they'd have a well-hard currency.
*these last three words are best said in the voice of Jeremy Clarkson.
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Re: Scottish Independence
Is there a militant wing to the SLP?
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Re: Scottish Independence
There was at one time. A friend of mine who was an SNP member claimed that a senior member had shown him a secret arsenal.
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Re: Scottish Independence
It won't happen !
Alex Salmond is a dreamer ,they cannot afford to be independent it would be too expensive,and require big tax rises too
The only people who would vote for it are the young !
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by driveace
It won't happen !
Alex Salmond is a dreamer ,they cannot afford to be independent it would be too expensive,and require big tax rises too
The only people who would vote for it are the young !
I totally agree with you, but sadly there are a percentage of people who will vote on this not actually knowing any of the changes it brings. I work with a Scottish girl who said she wishes she could still vote as she'd vote in favour. Her reason? She hates the English (apart from all her English friends) and wants to see Scotland as an independent country. You go into any detail about it though and she hasn't a clue. I know other Scots who are deeply against it and understand the ramifications. Personally I am against it, but if it does go ahead, it needs to be total independence rather than the rest of the UK continuing to support them both financially in the long term. I get the impression this change is driven more by pride than logic. :)
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by driveace
It won't happen !
Alex Salmond is a dreamer ,they cannot afford to be independent it would be too expensive,and require big tax rises too
The only people who would vote for it are the young !
Being independent pays off in the long term perspective. If you play your cards skillfully, that is. It's been 22 years since the Soviet Union fell apart and Belarus became independent. We've become much better off since then. We are a small economy, but we invest strategically in infrastructure, healthcare etc. As a result, the quality of life is higher than that in most post-Soviet countries. Independence doesn't guarantee you anything but it gives you an opportunity. That's whats it's about.
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Re: Scottish Independence
Would it not be something of a NI debacle? Just viewing some documentaries with respect to the two soccer teams in Glasgow and it appears as though Sectarianism is rife in Glasgow. Is that the makeup of Scotland? Loyalist and Catholic Nationalists!
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by Spafranco
Would it not be something of a NI debacle? Just viewing some documentaries with respect to the two soccer teams in Glasgow and it appears as though Sectarianism is rife in Glasgow. Is that the makeup of Scotland? Loyalist and Catholic Nationalists!
No; not even close. There are some issues in Glasgow, but this is pretty isolated and in any case they all identify as Scottish and not with another country as in Northern Ireland's case.
Having visited Glasgow and Belfast - they don't have much in common in that regard!
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Re: Scottish Independence
I thought it kind of odd that Irish sectionalism would be expressed in terms of Scottish football teams. But nothing else in Irish sectionalism makes much sense anymore, either. Granted I haven't been through the Northern Ireland since 2001. The looks my rental with Cork plates got!
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by Spafranco
Would it not be something of a NI debacle? Just viewing some documentaries with respect to the two soccer teams in Glasgow and it appears as though Sectarianism is rife in Glasgow. Is that the makeup of Scotland? Loyalist and Catholic Nationalists!
There are plenty of examples like Glasgow in the UK where football teams divide allegiance relating to religion but it's nothing like Northern Ireland I can assure you. Not even in the same ball park.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by henners88
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Originally Posted by Spafranco
Would it not be something of a NI debacle? Just viewing some documentaries with respect to the two soccer teams in Glasgow and it appears as though Sectarianism is rife in Glasgow. Is that the makeup of Scotland? Loyalist and Catholic Nationalists!
There are plenty of examples like Glasgow in the UK where football teams divide allegiance relating to religion but it's nothing like Northern Ireland I can assure you. Not even in the same ball park.
Local rivalries - yes. But based on religious sectarianism - where? Hearts and Hibs, and where else? Liverpool & Everton, Birmingham City & Aston Villa, Dundee & Dundee United, Sheffield United & Sheffield Wednesday, and Manchester United & Manchester City are purely local rivalries and not sectarian.
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Re: Scottish Independence
My guess is that most Rangers or Celtic fans don't have a clue about religion, never mind the intracasies of it all. I remember standing in a packed train on my way home (from the only football match I have ever been to!) from Celtic Park and had to laugh at the fans behaviour...
Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.
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Scottish Independence
Relating to religion as in once upon a time in history, not meaning that is the cause these days. 'Not in the same ball park'.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by J4MIE
Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.
Yeah from what I've read it's residency that counts. So there are many Scottish such as yourself who won't be able to vote. But many non-Scottish who are living in Scotland who can.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by J4MIE
My guess is that most Rangers or Celtic fans don't have a clue about religion, never mind the intracasies of it all. I remember standing in a packed train on my way home (from the only football match I have ever been to!) from Celtic Park and had to laugh at the fans behaviour...
Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.
All the sentiments are laudable but the fact remains that there is a deep rift in terms of religion and the Scottish game.
Just a cursory look and I found numerous topics on the very aspect of sectarianism.
I recognize that quite a bit of it is nationalistic fervor but that this takes on as a catalyst, one's religion, whether it be practiced by the individuals or not is one that is rooted in the Catholicism and Protestantism of the opposing teams and their origins.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3232406
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by Spafranco
Quote:
Originally Posted by J4MIE
My guess is that most Rangers or Celtic fans don't have a clue about religion, never mind the intracasies of it all. I remember standing in a packed train on my way home (from the only football match I have ever been to!) from Celtic Park and had to laugh at the fans behaviour...
Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.
All the sentiments are laudable but
the fact remains that there is a deep rift in terms of religion and the Scottish game.
Just a cursory look and I found numerous topics on the very aspect of sectarianism.
I recognize that quite a bit of it is nationalistic fervor but that this takes on as a catalyst, one's religion, whether it be practiced by the individuals or not is one that is rooted in the Catholicism and Protestantism of the opposing teams and their origins.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3232406
That's the myth. In reality, in football sectarianism is confined to some of the followers of Rangers and Celtic. It does not extend to other teams or throughout football in Scotland. Read the Scotsman article and you'll see that it only refers to Rangers and Celtic.
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Re: Scottish Independence
I would like to know what percentage of sectarian violence to do with Rangers and Celtic is actually perpetrated by Irish and Northern Irish nationals who fly to Glasgow for the weekend.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by D-Type
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Originally Posted by Spafranco
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Originally Posted by J4MIE
My guess is that most Rangers or Celtic fans don't have a clue about religion, never mind the intracasies of it all. I remember standing in a packed train on my way home (from the only football match I have ever been to!) from Celtic Park and had to laugh at the fans behaviour...
Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.
All the sentiments are laudable but
the fact remains that there is a deep rift in terms of religion and the Scottish game.
Just a cursory look and I found numerous topics on the very aspect of sectarianism.
I recognize that quite a bit of it is nationalistic fervor but that this takes on as a catalyst, one's religion, whether it be practiced by the individuals or not is one that is rooted in the Catholicism and Protestantism of the opposing teams and their origins.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3232406
That's the myth. In reality, in football sectarianism is confined to
some of the followers of Rangers and Celtic. It does not extend to other teams or throughout football in Scotland. Read the Scotsman article and you'll see that it only refers to Rangers and Celtic.
I have read the article and I have also read others. There are many teams that are known as Catholic and Protestant. The ones I read about are Dundee and Dundee United, Hibernian and Hearts and there was one or two others.
I can give you the links.
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Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
I would like to know what percentage of sectarian violence to do with Rangers and Celtic is actually perpetrated by Irish and Northern Irish nationals who fly to Glasgow for the weekend.
I can't believe you wrote that. Are you not in GB? I have many of your well thought out posts and I am surprised with the tenor of your post. Although you mention Rangers it was as though in a passive sense whereas Celtic were a team importing radicals from Ireland to cause trouble.
This is from Channel Four England (I believe)
For a prolonged period, British armed forces in uniform waved, clapped, danced, did the “bouncy” and snapped their selfies in front of fans – as the Ibrox faithful went through their repertoire of Rule Britannia, Derry’s Walls, The Sash and so forth. A number of chants praised the Northern Irish paramilitary organisation the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) - See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons ... xM7Q6.dpuf
It’s not clear whether or not the scores of uniformed soldiers actually joined in with the singing – but they very much joined in in every other conceivable way, lending their obvious and very public support to a litany of sectarian songs. It was a party – a loud, sectarian, political party. The British Army, air force and navy were taking sides. The evidence is all there, all over YouTube (see above), posted by loyal Rangers fans who thought it was all an innocent grand day out. - See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons ... xM7Q6.dpuf
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by Spafranco
I can't believe you wrote that. Are you not in GB? I have many of your well thought out posts and I am surprised with the tenor of your post. Although you mention Rangers it was as though in a passive sense whereas Celtic were a team importing radicals from Ireland to cause trouble.
This is from Channel Four England (I believe)
The Rangers & Celtic, Celtic & Rangers (hooray boo, boo hooray - pick your own side) sectarian question rings on both sides of the divide and has done for a very long time. And no, I don't think that Rangers are passive at all - how can you say that when this sort of carry on happens in the colour of blue?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Zvwmqpj088...00/2zqvbep.jpg
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Originally Posted by Spafranco
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
I would like to know what percentage of sectarian violence to do with Rangers and Celtic is actually perpetrated by Irish and Northern Irish nationals who fly to Glasgow for the weekend.
I have a feeling that most of violence which happens are probably fly-ins but I do not know the percentage. No, I do not live in the UK, I live in HM Prison - New South Wales (est 1788).
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Re: Scottish Independence
You simply can't read internet articles to gage a true feeling of what it like to live here and what isolated troubles we have here and there. The rivalry Rangers and Celtic have does not spread throughout Scotland and very rarely even gets a mention on the news. It's no different from the rivalries up and down the country and isn't ready to flair up into a civil war just yet.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by henners88
You simply can't read internet articles to gage a true feeling of what it like to live here and what isolated troubles we have here and there. The rivalry Rangers and Celtic have does not spread throughout Scotland and very rarely even gets a mention on the news. It's no different from the rivalries up and down the country and isn't ready to flair up into a civil war just yet.
Internet articles written by respected journalists certainly add credence to the article. There is quite a lot more involved when the manager of Glasgow Celtic has to have a twenty four hour security detail.
If Rangers and Celtic are just involved in the rivalry aspect of the game then woe is me that acceptance of death as a result of this that I can accept this with a blase type of attitude.
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Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
I can't believe you wrote that. Are you not in GB? I have many of your well thought out posts and I am surprised with the tenor of your post. Although you mention Rangers it was as though in a passive sense whereas Celtic were a team importing radicals from Ireland to cause trouble.
This is from Channel Four England (I believe)
The Rangers & Celtic, Celtic & Rangers (hooray boo, boo hooray - pick your own side) sectarian question rings on both sides of the divide and has done for a very long time. And no, I don't think that Rangers are passive at all - how can you say that when this sort of carry on happens in the colour of blue?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Zvwmqpj088...00/2zqvbep.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
I would like to know what percentage of sectarian violence to do with Rangers and Celtic is actually perpetrated by Irish and Northern Irish nationals who fly to Glasgow for the weekend.
I have a feeling that most of violence which happens are probably fly-ins but I do not know the percentage. No, I do not live in the UK, I live in HM Prison - New South Wales (est 1788).
Well, I am glad to see you recognize the sectarianism as it was denied that it even existed by many others.
I hope you get out of prison soon:)
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Re: Scottish Independence
Yes, sectarianism does exist in Scotland. Yes, this manifests itself in the Rangers/Celtic 'thing'.
But, although both Hibs and Dundee united had their origins as clubs for Irish immigrants, both have lost all trace of their origins and there is no ethnic or sectarian element in the build up of their support. These days the rivalry between teams is purely a function of local geography.
In the four years I spent in Dundee, the only times you heard sectarian chants and songs were when one of the "Old Firm" were playing one of the local teams.
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Re: Scottish Independence
Isn't it ludicrous that El Salvador and Honduras went to war over WC qualifying.
A question to the football (soccer) fans; is it a hindrance to Ranger and Celtic that having their issues and because of these they will never be allowed to join the EPL? Look at Swansea and Cardiff. Great to see them there.
Our TV coverage here took a nose dive when FSC lost to NBC to cover the games. I hate it. They actually give results of games they are showing later in the day. No warning.
Suarez is the Pele of the century.
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Scottish Independence
Next time you are in the UK Spa I'll take you to see a London derby where religion is barely even on the minds of fans who want to tear each other to shreds! lol. There are plenty of fans of football clubs who are also associated with groups like the EDL but thankfully not enough to cause stability trouble for our society. I used to have a season ticket for Anfield in the late 90's and saw plenty of ill feeling toward Everton and Man Utd but I seriously doubt these people would suddenly cause the type of trouble we have seen in NI should the country become independent. Just my opinion of course and if Scotland get independence, we'll have to see.
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Re: Scottish Independence
This is true; anywhere you have two football clubs in the same locale it's the same story. Near me there's Newcastle and Sunderland, whenever they play each other there's always load of trouble from the dregs of society who want to fight because of football loyalties. Religion has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by henners88
Next time you are in the UK Spa I'll take you to see a London derby where religion is barely even on the minds of fans who want to tear each other to shreds! lol. There are plenty of fans of football clubs who are also associated with groups like the EDL but thankfully not enough to cause stability trouble for our society. I used to have a season ticket for Anfield in the late 90's and saw plenty of ill feeling toward Everton and Man Utd but I seriously doubt these people would suddenly cause the type of trouble we have seen in NI should the country become independent. Just my opinion of course and if Scotland get independence, we'll have to see.
Thanks for the invite Henner. When in the States I'll bring you to a College SEC (South Conference) or a pro game. The Bears or DA BAAAAYER'S.
I loved football growing up as my sister married an older guy who once played for Oxford Utd, Birmingham and Burnley. I became a Chelsea fan and remember the names of players I only got to see when they retired or played in the World Cup.
Peter Bonetti, Osgood, Webb, Dunphy (sic) Tambling , Hutchinson, Hudson and others I can't recall at this stage.
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Re: Scottish Independence
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Originally Posted by Mark
This is true; anywhere you have two football clubs in the same locale it's the same story. Near me there's Newcastle and Sunderland, whenever they play each other there's always load of trouble from the dregs of society who want to fight because of football loyalties. Religion has nothing to do with it.
I saw a documentary not long ago from the 80's I think. It was about football supporter violence in English Football. Something You don't hear much about these days. At least nowadays. I
t was a badge of honor for some here in the US to bash 'soocer' as it was a sissy game. One have been interesting to see Bubba chasing Messi or Suarez or the Welsh kid at Real Madrid. We know who the sissy would be.Now that we are doing well and have many players in the EPL it is getting a better foothold.
To the documentary; it was about Milwall. Nigh on impossible to believe that the idiots claimed never to see a game. Their intent was to 'cause problems with the other supports.
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Re: Scottish Independence
It was a massive problem in the 1980's and English clubs ended up banned from European competition for a good while because of the actions of the 'fans'. It's been brought under control to a large degree by police targetting the known troublemakers and banning them from town centres etc while games are on; this has proven quite effective. However there are still problems, Newcastle supporters attempting to attack Sunderland supporters as they got onto trains at Newcastle station being one example; in many cases away fans have to be bussed in protected by a police cordon; pretty crazy.