Maybe Schumacher's return wasn't all that rubbish?

The form of Nico Rosberg in comparison to Lewis Hamilton this season has been very interesting.
I think it is fair to say that the majority of people expected Lewis to have the upper-hand in the team; and by some margin. However this has so far not been the case at all, with them both fairly evenly matched. This being the same Nico Rosberg that was kept honest in 2012 pace-wise at least by the "rubbish" Schumacher.
So is it a case of either a) Lewis Hamilton not being anywhere near as good as he's hyped to be, or b) Schumacher's return was no where near as bad as it sometimes looked and that Rosberg is infact a very strong driver?

I rememer saying when MS's comeback was announced, that Nico was on a hiding to nothing. Ih he beat MS, no matter how convincingly, it was because MS was too old, too slow, been away too long etc, and that if he failed to beat him it would spell the end of his top flight chances as he was being beaten by a has-been. This was pretty much borne out, as Nice did pretty much convoncingly beat him, yet didn't receive the kind of credit it perhaps deserved, if you assume that he was driving at the same, or at least a similar, level to that he is now.

2 things we can probably deduce now is that post comeback MS was not nearly as poor as some of us thought, and that Nico is a bit of a superstar

Personally I think 6 races into the new season Lewis is still settling into his new team and Nico is not surprising me in the slightest. I've been saying for years here how I think Nico is under rated. Hamilton has admitted he's suffered breaking issues in the last two races and hasn't been that far off Rosberg's pace overall. I think we are in for a treat for the remainder of the season to be quite honest, and lets not forget Hamilton is only 15 points ahead of Nico. Hamilton is hyped for good reason and that is because he has shown his ability since entering the sport. You can't fake the types of performances he's put in and we all know from watching the sport for so long that a great car doesn't always make a driver great. In Hamilton's case he's a World Champion and has many victories to his name already. His time at Merc will improve and I expect Rosberg to show his talent too. Arguably the strongest pairing in F1 right now and if Merc deliver the car, they'll reap the rewards.

As far as Schumacher goes I'm not sure how we can really compare. This season the car is the best one Merc have produced so far and although Schuey found his old pace in 2012, he also demonstrated his age far too often. He did ok but was far from his past brilliance IMO. The lack of in season testing, a team with its own test track, and 3 years out of the sport, not to mention being a man in his 40's, I still think he made a mistake returning. What we have now at Mercedes is a more exciting prospect and I expect 2014 to bring a very competitive package indeed. :)

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Originally Posted by henners88

Personally I think 6 races into the new season Lewis is still settling into his new team and Nico is not surprising me in the slightest. I've been saying for years here how I think Nico is under rated. Hamilton has admitted he's suffered breaking issues in the last two races and hasn't been that far off Rosberg's pace overall. I think we are in for a treat for the remainder of the season to be quite honest, and lets not forget Hamilton is only 15 points ahead of Nico. Hamilton is hyped for good reason and that is because he has shown his ability since entering the sport. You can't fake the types of performances he's put in and we all know from watching the sport for so long that a great car doesn't always make a driver great. In Hamilton's case he's a World Champion and has many victories to his name already. His time at Merc will improve and I expect Rosberg to show his talent too. Arguably the strongest pairing in F1 right now and if Merc deliver the car, they'll reap the rewards.

As far as Schumacher goes I'm not sure how we can really compare. This season the car is the best one Merc have produced so far and although Schuey found his old pace in 2012, he also demonstrated his age far too often. He did ok but was far from his past brilliance IMO. The lack of in season testing, a team with its own test track, and 3 years out of the sport, not to mention being a man in his 40's, I still think he made a mistake returning. What we have now at Mercedes is a more exciting prospect and I expect 2014 to bring a very competitive package indeed. :)

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I agree with everything in this post, which is rare given that it was such a long one :)

The one thing I'd like to add is that some people seem to believe that Hamilton underestimated Nico but this is not the case at all. Hamilton said he wasn't surprised that Nico gave Schumacher a hard time because having raced against Nico in karting he knew how good he was. To say that about a guy up against Schumacher says a lot. He also rated Nico, Alonso and Vettel as the best drivers in the sport about a year or so ago and he's right.

I've always felt that Nico is a superstar and I'm glad it's finally getting recognized now. Hamilton might just pip him in the end, just maybe. China is the only place so far this year where I felt Hamilton looked anywhere near being at one with the car whereas Nico is completely harmonious and you can see that especially in qualifying. It will take time for Hamilton to resolve but he will be the better driver in the end for it.

of course it wasn't... well, maybe just for those who overrated MS and underrated NR... both concepts used to be quite trendy

Schumi was let down by the car. If he had driven a Red Bull, we would've won quite a few races during his second career. Interesting twist about Hamilton vs Rosberg: Nico's greatest rival in GP2 was Heikki Kovalainen who was destroyed by Lewis and now Nico is outperforming Lewis. My point is that it's very difficult to make comparisons....

I think we need to give credit to Rosberg. He is clearly a great driver and is showing now that given the right car he can be right at the top.

Also lets give Lewis a chance. I mean its only 6 races into a massive transition and in the first 3 of those he did well. Also we know about Merc's tyre issues so really its been a hard situation for Lewis to come into. He is doing OK and will get better settled over this season and step up in 2014.

Also on Schumi. I always thought he did a good job on the whole. This maybe just confirms it a little more

3 - 0 :D

Well done Rosberg :s mokin:

Six races into season is to early to make any conclusions. As for Schumacher's return, it's really hard to tell now if this was the same Schumacher we have been seeing in 1992-2007. Time and a long break have got to take their toll eventually. I do believe that Rosberg is probably much better than the credit he normally gets.

It is a mix of various things. I was genuinely impressed with Schumacher last year. He was a contender of being a top6 driver on the grid in my view. You could get the feeling he could give top drivers a run for their money by the way he was hustling that tyre-eater Mercedes around and outracing Rosberg in the process.

On the other hand Rosberg, regardless of how he is performing right now, was a little disappointing last year. IMO there is no hiding of this. But drivers performances vary, now he has reached a higher level again. One we saw in 2007, 2009 and 2010 - the best Rosberg years.

I have always thought of Nico as one of the top tier drivers at least, ever since his fastest lap at his debut in a Williams, was it at Bahrain? What was lacking was probably his race pace, which has improved quite a lot now. His pole and flag-to-flag victory at China last year should have been indication enough that he's top class. I knew Lewis would have a tougher teammate than he's had at Mclaren.

But I think what's massively getting overlooked is that it's only been 6 races, and this is still a new team, a new car, new team members, new bosses, new environment, new everything for Lewis. Like Brawn said, it takes time to settle down. For example little things like how there are different and extra settings for brake diff or how the car behaves at its rear. There's a video of Lewis describing it during winter testing. Nico has been in the team since 2010, so is already well versed with these things and now it's second nature to him.

Considering all this, Lewis did a mammoth job outqualifying Nico in the first 3 races! Nico simply upped his game after the Chinese GP, and now Lewis has to do the same. Lewis is doing a MUCH better job than MS if we take qualifying positions and points table into account. I'd say Merc GP has the strongest driver pairing in Formula 1 and 2014 should be an interesting season.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Lewis is doing a MUCH better job than MS if we take qualifying positions and points table into account.

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Yes but it's pretty clear that Mercedes has a vastly superior car in comparison to anything they came up with between 2010-12.

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Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

Yes but it's pretty clear that Mercedes has a vastly superior car in comparison to anything they came up with between 2010-12.

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I also made the point about the car but in terms of performance between drivers its a lot closer this season so far than it was during Michaels three seasons. So far I repeat. There were times when we were questioning whether the drivers were driving the same car when there was a gulf between performances. Michael had some good races in 2012 and Nico seemed off the boil most of the time too. I don't know how we can compare Hamilton with Schumacher when the cars are apparently a lot different, Nico is driving better than ever, and Lewis is at the start of a new challenge. The age gap also comes into it too.

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Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

Yes but it's pretty clear that Mercedes has a vastly superior car in comparison to anything they came up with between 2010-12.

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Like I said in my earlier post, "if we take qualifying positions and points table into account" so far. Nothing to do with car performance. Schumacher was never up 3-0 in qualifying on Rosberg at any point in all the three years, neither was he this ahead in the points table, keeping in mind that this is still a new team and new car for Lewis.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Like I said in my earlier post, "if we take qualifying positions and points table into account" so far. Nothing to do with car performance. Schumacher was never up 3-0 in qualifying on Rosberg at any point in all the three years, neither was he this ahead in the points table, keeping in mind that this is still a new team and new car for Lewis.

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I think based on 2012 Hamilton-Button experience it would be wise to be careful about points table comparison. Rosberg and Schumacher were certainly very comparable last year, if not with a slight edge to Schumi. In the same way Rosberg and Hamilton have been comparable this year, regardless of points.

This is "History"?

It's a grey area isn't it? Schumacher has retired, so it can't be "current" F1. But Rosberg and Hamilton are still active so it can't be called "History". As Schumacher is, or should be, the focus of this threaid I suppose the needle just swings towards "History".

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Originally Posted by henners88

As far as Schumacher goes I'm not sure how we can really compare. This season the car is the best one Merc have produced so far and although Schuey found his old pace in 2012, he also demonstrated his age far too often. He did ok but was far from his past brilliance IMO. The lack of in season testing, a team with its own test track, and 3 years out of the sport, not to mention being a man in his 40's, I still think he made a mistake returning. What we have now at Mercedes is a more exciting prospect and I expect 2014 to bring a very competitive package indeed. :)

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Hardly a mistake. He loved racing. Had half a billion dollars to his name but all he wanted to do was test himself again.

I'm not sure why people bring up the testing thing and somehow attributing his success to that. All teams were allowed to test in-season and simply having a large budget doesn't equal success otherwise Ferrari would have won the last three seasons with Alonso and Toyota would have been dominant in the mid-2000's.

It's becoming clear now that Alonso and Hamilton aren't the new Senna and Prost as predicted six years ago but the new Villeneuve and Hill. Maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but there's a lot of truth to it.

Hamilton was widely touted as the best driver on the grid before the season began, and now he's saying he can't figure out the brakes six races into the season??? Schumacher, Prost, Senna all figured out how to drive around problems when they found the setup sub-optimal. It was the tyres he blamed for being put away by Button in 2011, now the brakes in 2013. What's Mercedes paying all this money for?

Remember, he got beat by Button 2/3 years and now Perez looks to be slowly but surely getting the better of Button. I don't think this era is as strong as people have claimed in recent years.

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Originally Posted by zako85

Six races into season is to early to make any conclusions. As for Schumacher's return, it's really hard to tell now if this was the same Schumacher we have been seeing in 1992-2007.

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Is it really hard to tell? He came back at 40 after a 3.5 year lay off where the only track driving he did was recreationally. Michael Jordan was a shadow of his former self when he came back but no-one questions his accomplishments.

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Originally Posted by faster69

Hardly a mistake. He loved racing. Had half a billion dollars to his name but all he wanted to do was test himself again.

I'm not sure why people bring up the testing thing and somehow attributing his success to that. All teams were allowed to test in-season and simply having a large budget doesn't equal success otherwise Ferrari would have won the last three seasons with Alonso and Toyota would have been dominant in the mid-2000's.

It's becoming clear now that Alonso and Hamilton aren't the new Senna and Prost as predicted six years ago but the new Villeneuve and Hill. Maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but there's a lot of truth to it.

Hamilton was widely touted as the best driver on the grid before the season began, and now he's saying he can't figure out the brakes six races into the season??? Schumacher, Prost, Senna all figured out how to drive around problems when they found the setup sub-optimal. It was the tyres he blamed for being put away by Button in 2011, now the brakes in 2013. What's Mercedes paying all this money for?

Remember, he got beat by Button 2/3 years and now Perez looks to be slowly but surely getting the better of Button. I don't think this era is as strong as people have claimed in recent years.

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We're entitled to our opinions on Schumacher and yes I do feel his comeback was a mistake regardless of how it is dressed up. Hamilton putting his poor 2011 performances down to tyres is a new one on me. I thought it was because he crashed loads and lost points due to driver errors. Pace wise he was far ahead of Button and tyres didn't seem to be the issue at all. Oh and btw it was Hamilton who finished ahead of Button in 2 of the 3 years not the other way round lol. We can't all draw our info from the beloved Wikipedia.


Six races in.

Yes, Hamilton had a lot of trouble adapting to the tyres in 2011 unlike Button who beat him fair and square.

Sure, over a single lap Hamilton was faster than Button, but close to 60 races in identical machinery is a pretty good sample size and Button slightly got the better of him. You put Vettel in a McLaren and he makes Button look like Webber.

Please! The subject of this thread is Michael Schumacher - not comparisons between current F1 drivers! If you want to discuss current racers do so on the F1 thread.

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Originally Posted by jens

It is a mix of various things. I was genuinely impressed with Schumacher last year. He was a contender of being a top6 driver on the grid in my view. You could get the feeling he could give top drivers a run for their money by the way he was hustling that tyre-eater Mercedes around and outracing Rosberg in the process.

On the other hand Rosberg, regardless of how he is performing right now, was a little disappointing last year. IMO there is no hiding of this. But drivers performances vary, now he has reached a higher level again. One we saw in 2007, 2009 and 2010 - the best Rosberg years.

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I agree, but, equally, there was no hiding how poor Schumacher was on occasions too.

Too many excuses for Schumacher. The only reason why Schumacher's return wasn't all that rubbish is because it was worse than anticipated! You can create all sorts of excuses for it. The best indicator I think, considering the Mercs were not outright race winning cars, but were an outside shot for a podium, is that Nico got 5 podiums to Schumacher's 1. That one was hardly a convincing one as well. Nico finished in the points half a dozen times more as well (only asking to finish 10th!), Finished ahead in the title all three seasons. Before he returned, some people expected a serious title challenge from him, if not a win in 11 or 12. At worst, adding another half dozen wins. It was terrible, Schuey fans can't hide from that.

Schumacher may have forgotten how to win, but he still had the best swerve in motorsports.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...xmVvdWwloaW-X8

As one of The Shoe's biggest fans, I was excited to hear that he would be returning to F1 after a 3 year hiatus. But once he arrived, it was evident that the old magic was gone :( He was still fit, but his driving was downright poor at times. He should have enjoyed his retirement. The only good thing about his comeback is my eldest son got to see him racing and can one day say, yeah, I actually watched The Shoe racing when I was young :)

It was rubbish. Those years were a wasted opportunity to test the young drivers. It would have been far more productive to have someone like Hulkenberg or Perez driving that car.

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Originally Posted by zako85

It was rubbish. Those years were a wasted opportunity to test the young drivers. It would have been far more productive to have someone like Hulkenberg or Perez driving that car.

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Even today I think Hulkenberg in particular has earned better.

I also think Chico did not look all that bad teamed with Button. Remember in the beginning of the year they had a hard time keeping the two from racing each other so hard, and Chico gave as good as he got. I think McLaren knew Chico had a decent year, and their car sucked anyway, which is why they went to such lengths helping him secure a ride elsewhere. It would not surprise me to see him back at McLaren in a few years.

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Originally Posted by Doc Austin

Even today I think Hulkenberg in particular has earned better....

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Good call Doc! :eek:

Thanks for providing the Schumi Swerve pic btw. He danced so well. :D