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I remember that 2011 was one of Williams's worst seasons in history. They didn't score any points until 6th race. Back then there were already quite a bit of articles in the press about it. Cosworth engine was blamed. For some reason no one is noticing Williams's lack of success this time around. At this rate, it looks like 2013 might be their worst season in decades.
I was wondering if anyone else noticed that Bottas was fighting with Pic's Caterham for position... :\
Just to make myself look like a smartie pants. :p : I noticed and posted this in the Driver of the Day thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
It is worrying though to see Williams back down there. Especially after last year when they seemed to have found something major.
at least they managed to pass a Merc this time :andrea: :devil: :p
God knows what got into the Williams folk to ditch a decent car like last year's and go for a radical new design in a transition year. It didn't work for Mclaren it didn#t work for them. Why can't they just revert back to last year's car? Everything's got to be better than the paperweight they came up with for 2013. :s
According to Mika Salo, Bottas, at least would like to switch to last year's car.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
So McLaren and Williams are in the same boat - two legendary teams struggling badly. Is this the sign of long-term decline? For Williams it has of course lasted for some time, but by now it has become truly serious - before now they were at least a strong midfield outfit.
Wonder, how did it get so wrong, because 2012 was truly promising. After 2011 Williams had a shake-up in the technical department and much of the progress of 2012 was attributed to Coughlan & Co. But to no long-term avail, it seems.
Mclaren don't stay down for long. But it has been a disturbing pattern, and for some reason especially on odd numbered years of late. They simply don't get their development right at the start of the year. in 2012 they did, but not in 2009 & 2011.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
As for Williams, and back on topic. I think this will go down as a major blunder and a completely wasted opportunity. They changes the entire car for the sake of change and the typical F1 mentality that "you got to have a different car next year" philosophy. Despite having the 4th/5th best car on the grid last year, and arguably a race winner with better results in store if not of some boneheaded maldonado moves. They only needed to touch it up here and there, then save the radical design process for 2014. they have wasted 2013 for no good reason. I'm with Bottas. Try out the 2012 car for a race weekend and see how things shake out. At this point they got nothing to lose. perhaps for Canada. Barcelona would have been the ideal track to test it out, as they would have gotten a very good baseline correlation to the 2013 car. But teams, especially Williams, are stubborn to a fault and along with mclaren and sauber, have gotten the 2013 car completely wrong.
Umm... I disagree with the "let's try out last year's car" statements in the case of any of the teams in question (McLaren, Williams, Sauber). When was the last time that car actually got some new development parts? November last year? Even if it was competitive last year, it has fallen well behind by now. If any of those teams decided to ditch their 'revolutionary' design and go with last year's car, they should have made a quick decision during winter testing. Now we are already five races into the season and it is too late.
I think their problems go beyond the engineering decisions. Williams is not bold enough. It's very hard to succeed in F1 if you always play it safe. They're pinching pennies. They hire pay drivers. They really care about the bottom line at the end of fiscal year. In their worst years, sometimes they're not even in red. If the 2012 Williams car was fast, just imagine what someone like Raikonnen could have done with it. Maldonado's win in Spain 2011 now is starting to look almost as random as J.R. Hildebrand's 2nd place finish in 2011 Indy 500.
Now look at the opposite end of spectrum, the Lotus F1. Lotus F1 is a team with similar resources. It seems like in the last two years Lotus F1 has gone completely broke. They owned money to Renault for engines, they owned money for Kimi's 2012 contract(s), they owned money to their sponsor Lotus Cars, who threatened to take over team assets if they don't repay on time. And yet, boy have they delivered! The comeback of Lotus (the former Renault/Benetton/whatever) was the most exciting thing to watch in the last couple of years. Easily my favorite team right now.
PS: sorry I meant "owed", not owned
Although Lotus have lost their technical director recently. We'll see how much that hinders them in the next 12 months or so.
They are.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
They have copied RBR's tunnels and they're not working properly.
Does anyone know what the problems are with this years Williams?
One issue as someone raised above is that Williams appear to have scraped development on a decent 2012 car and instead gone a different route which hasn't worked.
All the more suprising when you consider the changes coming next season.
The problems aren't just with the 2013 car. Williams haven't produced a competitive car since 2003. Even the 2012 car was only a midfield runner despite the Barcelona victory. You have to go back to 1997 to find the last Williams that was a true championship contender.
Whatever problems Williams have are deep-seated and I can't see them getting back to the front. They no longer attract high profile sponsors so you have to question their financial strength. No top driver will give them a second glance, just look at Hamilton's disgust at being passed by a Williams. Williams are following the same path that Brabham, Tyrell and Lotus followed before them. Those teams were not able to survive the decline or demise of the men who founded them. Frank Williams and Patrick Head are no longer able to keep the team at the front as they did in the past and have failed to pass the torch to somebody who can.
I think the only thing that is preventing Williams from being sold off to the highest bidder is Sir Frank himself. He's no longer a young man so how much longer will he remain in charge? He's already stepped back in certain areas and even if he passes the team to his children will they have the same drive that their father has possessed for 30+ years to keep the Williams name in F1?
The problem is that Williams lost just about everything after 1997. The Newey cars were so well designed, even people like Hill and Villeneuve could win in them. Suddenly Newey was gone, the works engine, too and I doubt Winfield payed as much as Rothmans. There was a resurgence with BMW, but even then it was more the engine and the Michelin advantage that saved them. In engineering terms they never recovered from Newey's departure.
I also doubt that nepotism is the right way to go. Obviously Williams was very fond of Adam Parr who might have been an heir - and he did seem like he knew what he was doing, but Bernie had him booted for ruffling too many feathers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Other problems:
- Having slow or atrociously inconsistent drivers who nonetheless bring small fortunes of sponsorship.
- Failing to otherwise secure decent sponsorship. I think this is a lot more deep-seated than just lacking the results to attract potential sponsors. The BMW issue highlighted this, and although they did eventually quit, Williams could possibly have been less ham-fisted about it.
- Improper technical direction. 2006-2010 were half-decent for the team apart from several front-running races (Monaco '06, Singapore '08, Malaysia '09, Singapore '09), most of which were scuttled by something - penalties or engine blow-ups. I thought maybe it was the technical director, but 2 years after he left they produced another truly rubbish car. So it is something more deeply amiss.
Lastly a quote about team culture. I think that maybe likening Jaguar and modern-day Williams is not all that irrelevant. Maybe all it needs is a different approach, which doesn't seem to be forthcoming...
Formula 1® - The Official F1® WebsiteQuote:
Q: The team is currently riding high, but it hasn’t always been the case. What were the darkest moments for the two of you?
Adrian Newey: Oh yes…developing the company from the ashes of Jaguar. That was a lot of work, as it was much more than just developing a new infrastructure. It was developing a whole new culture and setting the standards of how we want to go about things…
Christian Horner: … we wanted to develop a ‘can do’ structure. It was the opposite of what existed at Jaguar - a corporation trying to run a corner shop. It was a completely different mentality. Now we have a mentality where no task is too big.
Organizational culture is a very interesting aspect and perhaps they key aspect to any success or lack of it. It is something, which can't really be measured with devices, but only felt. And it is the hardest part to build. You can hire/sack some people, this can be done within days. But changing the general culture would take years regardless of the small steps.
Let's look at Mercedes. They have bought together a big bunch of engineers, yet are still merely in the upper midfield (or IN midfield later in the seasons).
Regardless of how much credit people want to give to Newey for RBR's success, it is clearly the general athmosphere and harmony in the team, which enables to deliver at the highest level. After all, McLaren didn't enjoy that much success together with Newey before that, especially in the 2000's.
What's wrong with Williams? They really tried to change the design team in 2011, I give them that. Yet it hasn't solved fundamental issues. What issue? If I am telling honestly, I don't get an energetic youthful vibe from Williams. For many years it has left an impression of a team, who is just dying a slow death rather than building up something. Frank Williams - as great as he is - certainly isn't as energetic as he was 20 years ago.
Maybe this is what Mercedes is trying to change now. They are bringing in the new energy and fresh ideas in the form of Toto Wolff and Paddy Lowe. Perhaps this could be the turning point for the team. Ross Brawn, as great as he is, perhaps hasn't been the right man to lead the Mercedes revival ANY MORE. Just like the Frank hasn't been in the Team Willy any more. Time has changed, energy has changed. Harsh reality, but like drivers can become "past their prime", so can the leaders.
Sorry for bringing other teams in, I just try to analyze in a wider context. What can save Williams from a slide? A completely new leadership, new owners, new energy, completely new ideas and culture, new sources of funding, new business plans with a blank sheet of paper. You can just take a look at what Genii Capital has done to Lotus-Renault, which was also sliding into oblivion previously. Or what has Mallya & Co done to the former Jordan team, which had become a firm backmarker under the previous disguises.
The losses of Parr and Wolff haven't helped Williams, but they were also "minor inclusions" to put it this way, not a complete overhaul. And in the case of Wolff he has seen a greater opportunity for himself than the Williams team. This means that most deep fundamentals of the team have to be changed, because Lopez and Mallya have not run away from their teams - these are their teams literally.
Time has moved on, time for a complete overhaul is the conclusive thought I can say. There would be unhappiness about the loss of the "classical Williams" team by many people, but this can't be helped, can it?
I suspect part of the problems with Williams is the inability to associate with a major sponsor, corporation, or manufacturer post its Renault era. Williams BMW had some good years, but after a string of bad seasons, BMW was pissed off and wanted to change things. Frank Williams refused to sell the team. BMW bought Sauber and Williams switched to Cosworth engines after 2005. It went downhill for Williams from there. I think the truly rich sponsors don't feel comfortable any more giving lots of money without owning the team.
Yes, the comparison with Sauber is interesting, because both are privateer teams, yet Sauber has managed to keep a more consistent form. In my view one of the reasons for that is that Peter Sauber has simply been more open-minded about future strategy than Frank Williams. Peter has been absolutely ready to sell the team without worrying about his personal legacy. He wanted a new ownership back in 09-10, but didn't find a buyer and had to re-establish himself as a team principal.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
Another aspect is the BMW era. BMW may have pulled out to leave Sauber in cold, but the era of 06-09 was useful for the team - they got the much-needed financial boost to upgrade the facilities and infrastructure. I think to this day it is pretty advanced, which enables the team to stay competitive. I don't know about Williams, but they could be more outdated. Williams tries to change some things, but they are reacting too little too slowly and competition has moved past them.
I disagree with this very, very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Two world championships with Mika, and very nearly two more with Kimi. The fact that they did not dominate does not mean much when you consider how badly Ferrari dominated.
Look at 1999, aside from bad luck, the McLaren dominated. It was (or at least should have been) no less a whitewash than 2011 season. The car was on podium or retired. The fact that they didn't get results that they deserved doesn't mean it wasn't within a whisker.
I think Frank Williams is what is wrong with Williams. Last year they had a great car, and Pastor ruined everything for them, except that win. The car was capable of so much more but wasted on a idiot with money and the famous name, also with money - yet who wasn't allowed any FP1 testing, can anyone explain this to me??Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Everything Williams does seems stupid to me. Their move to Cosworth was the stupidest one of all. Hiring Rubens, too, was pointless, as was getting rid of Hulkenburg.
Koz, you just reminded me of a big, institutional problem at Williams.
They seem to create (or have) an environment where some drivers cannot perform at their best.
Frentzen and Hulkenberg are the biggest examples of this. Both are considerably more talented than their results at Williams show, as seen by 1999 and the later half of 2012, respectively.
Barrichello was better than Hulkenberg in 2010, same with Maldonado in 2011 to a lesser extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
Rubens would have done Williams' points tally a shred of justice in 2012, given the car was top 5 material at some points of the season.
Unlike Maldonado, who could have easily doubled his points tally, but for no other reason than repeated stupid mistakes. Or maybe it was just stupid decisions, as seen in Monaco and Valencia. Bruno Senna on the other hand seemed nowhere in terms of pace.
Other than that I agree with everything you said.
How good would that car have been without Maldonaldo's $50 million? You take the money then you got to take the driver that comes with it. Would the money gained by having a more consistent driver than Maldonaldo offset the sponsorship money lost by not having PDVSA on board? I doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
Sauber has one advantage (which is also a disadvantage) over Williams.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Being based in Switzerland they find it difficult to recruit staff but those they do recruit tend to stay there.
Williams is based in motorsports valley and while in boom years its easy to find excellent staff now they are in a rut its difficult to retain the best people who end up sucked away by better funded teams not too far away. Its the same problem BAR/Honda/Mercedes have had as well.
With rumours of James Allison moving to Ferrari its highly regarded that remuneration is a major point for personnel changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
James Key, for instance, highly regarded as technical director moves from one midfield team to another which can look illogical to the outsider.
yup :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
That is part of the problem, not the solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
If 50 million for Pastor and 20 million for Senna is correct, how far off is their budget from Lotus?
It must be higher than Sauber, FI, STR at least. But they just don't deliver.
There is something inherently wrong with Williams' business model.
Did the dollars they save by going to Cosworth benefit them?
And last year they had a decent car let down by drivers...
They could have been on the podium consistently in 2010 if they had a decent engine.
If they need so much money from drivers to stay in F1, then I don't know what else I can say. You aren't going to attract the big sponsor by consistently being the weakest team on the grid, regardless of why they are the weakest.
I thought PDVSA's sponsortship was close to 25million a year, so 50 million figure is over two years. Besides South Americans, Williams doesn't have that many good sponsors. AT&T left them a year or two ago. I'd bet that Lotus sponsors bring more money. They got Total and Burn (new sponsor). Having beaten Williams consistently in WCC, and taken 3rd last year also brought Lotus more money. One difference between that two is that Lotus seems to be willing to spend more aggressively all the money they have and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
Quote:
There is something inherently wrong with Williams' business model.
Did the dollars they save by going to Cosworth benefit them?
Yes. They posted profit at the time Lotus was incurring big debts. Lotus frequently owned money to Renault for engines, I think even the last year.
Absolutely. And look what they have accomplished in the last year. I believe they still are in massive debt, but the way they are going they will get out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
Williams is posting a profit, but at what cost?
They aren't going to attract big sponsors if they are languishing behind everyone else.
Fine, they aren't on par with the top 5 teams, but I refuse to believe that they SRT, FI, Sauber have lower budgets than Williams.
The way they are going, it seems they just want to exist and as long as they somehow post a profit to stay alive, that's all that matters.
This reminds me of a lot of failed businesses who always try to cut costs at the cost of cutting quality. It rarely works.
Whether or not this actually applies to Williams, you're certainly right about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
It's a bit like Tony Blair saying that Saddam Hussein was bad. Correct sentiment, but wrong person expressing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
I see your point and in 1998-2000 McLaren was certainly very good. But IMO the subsequent period shows that Newey can't guarantee you success if the rest of the team is not up to it. And it is not merely about Ferrari's dominance, because in 2002-04 McLaren didn't even finish second in WCC. And in 2005 were beaten by Renault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
However, I must admit that Mercedes' engine deficiency was also strongly rumoured at the time, so I may be harsh on the McLaren design team and it may have been the Ilmor-designer engines, which didn't allow McLaren to win or even dominate F1 at the time.
There is clearly something inherently right about Williams' business model if they can turn a profit year in year out. One cannot say the same about Sauber in particular but also FI which depends on two Indian businesses that are in massive trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
Despite the troubles of recent years they have diversified and built up businesses supplying KERS devices to car and train makers, this also turns a profit which is ploughed back into the company.
While it appears that Williams have taken a step back this season (their qualifying time at Barcelona was for instance slower in 2013 than 2012) I suspect this has something to do with the change in tyre specification and a failure to react to this rather than the 2013 car being inherently worse than the previous season's. As a team in the longterm I think Williams are in a better position than their midfield rivals and possibly Lotus too.
Speaking of Lotus's losses:
The Lotus Formula One team last year recorded the biggest loss of any outfit in motorsport history
This doesn't sound very good. I guess their Genii Capital sponsors provide some kind of financial cushion.
It is also well known that Lotus never paid wages on time.