Team Orders

In light of the two sets of team orders we saw in the Malaysian GP this morning I wanted to gauge the attitude here on team orders.

Lets not get into slagging off particular teams or drivers, but lets look at the merits of team orders and historic use of team orders and If we think they have a place in F1.

We have seen teamorders from a strategy point of view, a championship point of view, a bringing the sport into disrepute view and ignored team orders view.

Then they were banned for a few years.

Lets talk. :p :

ban

I don't have a problem with it.

Only way of banning it is running single car teams.

okay, ban teams, not orders

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Originally Posted by wedge

Only way of banning it is running single car teams.

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Indeed. I think a lot of fans wish that team orders didn't exist, but we have to recognise that, like drug abuse or slavery, banning it does not make it go away. It's better that it be in the open.

Webber tacitly admitted in the post-race interviews that he had complied with team orders during the time they were banned.

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Originally Posted by wedge

I don't have a problem with it.

Only way of banning it is running single car teams.

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Neither do I on the whole.

The teams put up the money and pay the drivers and it is a team sport.

There are ways which make it better or worse. The Oz 98 or Austria 2002 are the ways not to go about it.

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Originally Posted by AndyL

Indeed. I think a lot of fans wish that team orders didn't exist, but we have to recognise that, like drug abuse or slavery, banning it does not make it go away. It's better that it be in the open.

Webber tacitly admitted in the post-race interviews that he had complied with team orders during the time they were banned.

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Its where team orders end I suppose. I mean in times when orders were banned, and a team had 2 cars running 1 stop and 2 stop, there would always be codes to stop one driver ruining the others strategy.

Like I said in the other thread

I think that fair is fair, and webber should have won. :D

OTOH, while not appearing to be as dangerous as it used to be, it is still dangerous out there. You take any driver who puts it all on the line, and got to where he is by not backing off but going for it, risking his life for glory and victory. Do you think that he is going to be peeing in his panties merely from the fear of some relatively minor consequences from ignoring some team order from someone in sitting in an armchair???

He might obey, just as a tiger does in a circus, but it ain't natural.

Never has been and never will be.....

It is not important if team orders are oficially banned/persecuted or not. If the common opinion (fans and independent media) is against them, teams will not even think to use them in this multi-million sport, you can be sure about that. What I am dissatisfied with is how many people congratulate that spineless Rosberg and criticize Vettel for "taking unneeded risks".

I remain of the opinion that bothe the Vettel and Rosberg discussion wouldn't be had, if the teams had common sense enough not to apply team orders this early in the season. I understand the use of them in the later races, when the title is on the line, but in the second race?
I also would understand at Monaco, where an overtaking manovre is most likely to end in the armco, but not on the widest track in the calender with two huge arse straights with prime overtaking spots.

I hate team orders but it's a necessary part of the sport so long as there are two championships. If Vettel/Webber or Hamilton/Rosberg had crashed fighting each other today, they'd have lost invaluable points.

Its funny that although all of todays action leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, it actually adds an edge to F1 I think.

Imagine in China if the Red Bulls Lock out the Front row. Not many would miss that charge to Turn 1.

F1 as we know is always throwing up strange and alarming situations, but F1 thrieves on action and incident.

As long as there are teams then team orders must be permitted. If you want team orders to be banned then you must first limit teams to running only one car.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

The teams put up the money and pay the drivers and it is a team sport.

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The teams get their money from advertisers (sponsors). The advertisers sign on based on how the team has performed in the past. Front running teams garner those advertises willing to pay to be up front in the races. Those same advertisers also want drivers that have name recognition and will be good spokesmen for the advertisers products.
No doubt, a lot of people have to do a good job to put the car on the grid.

But, team orders still SUCK. With team orders it's no longer a sport because the best driver on that team that day didn't finish in a position based on merit. Instead it's all just advertising and politics.

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Originally Posted by Mark

As long as there are teams then team orders must be permitted. If you want team orders to be banned then you must first limit teams to running only one car.

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well, that was my point....

Problem is that as i said, drivers are extremely competitive. Otherwise they are not where they are.

I know how I would feel if told to obey some team order that kept me from winning.

Hell, when I coached girls volleyball and they were ten years old girls---when it came to team orders, they would fight about who got to start and even who got to serve first.....and they stayed that way until they graduated from high school-- :mad:





Set that aside, it is a sorry state of affairs in F1, that even if we set aside egos, we must have team orders.

Why? Listen to the radio transmissions carefully. The issues with fuel and tires mandate that cars go not as fast as possible, but slow as possible.

otherwise they run out of both.

When webber was passed by vettel, he was on the slower tire compound, not the faster one like vettel, and both were running out of fuel.

This is as why the lead car tends to run in front of a group, because the leader can not just go as fast as possible because otherwise, he will run out of tires and/or fuel.

I say bring back refueling and let them race as fast as possible........ :vader:

Who would think that we would have another Senna vs Prost war again in this wonderful world of F1?

Bring it on, I say!! Bring it on!! At least it will keep me awake.

No fan wants to see an artificially controlled race, but its also a team sport. I think team orders work well for any team as long as both drivers are in agreement. Nico complied and after the race didn't appear bitter about the events. Its not something I want to see regularly from Mercedes as like any fan I want to see actual racing, especially from my favourite drivers. In the case of Red Bull I think yesterday demonstrated Vettel is fine with team orders as long as they go his way. We can give examples of Webber 2 years ago until the cows come home, but this situation really should be fully understood by both drivers by now. For team orders to work, they need full cooperation from everyone involved.

Mark Webber will take some time out and go surfing. On reflection, I think this is more an issue with Horner than the drivers. Dealing with this in a mature manner will be telling on Horner - maybe he will trade drivers with Mercedes or McLaren, or Ferrari. I try to be serious, but cannot help but jest. I need help!! :(

Out of Vettels three Championships two wnt down to less than 10 points. Did they really think that he's going to give away 7 free points in the second bloody race of a season to a driver who was everything but helpful in last year's finale? What the heck were RB thinking??

Good point!! It has been described as a poisonous relationship. On that, I have to agree.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Out of Vettels three Championships two wnt down to less than 10 points. Did they really think that he's going to give away 7 free points in the second bloody race of a season to a driver who was everything but helpful in last year's finale? What the heck were RB thinking??

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And if Webber had rolled out the red carpet in Brazil, do you think Vettel would somehow have decided not to cheat him yesterday? :laugh: :\

Webber stated publicly before Brazil that he would not give way to Vettel. Whilst he eventually did concede, at least he is a man who can keep his word.

Vettel, on the other hand, agreed not to pass after the final set of pit stops.

First he demanded Mark be moved out of the way.

Then after the final pit-stops he moved ahead anyway...

Then he claimed he didn't know about team orders...

Then he admitted he did and passed anyway...

Then said he was sorry... presumably only because he got caught out by the media.

And yes, it is Red Bull's fault that they have procured a driver who now knows he is above the team.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Out of Vettels three Championships two wnt down to less than 10 points. Did they really think that he's going to give away 7 free points in the second bloody race of a season to a driver who was everything but helpful in last year's finale? What the heck were RB thinking??

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I didn't agree with the criticism Mark got in Brazil last year because its very difficult to give your team mate a place when bunched up at the first corner with every other driver trying to get past. Webber was tough on Vettel like he was to every other driver in that situation and felt the criticism he got from a minority of fans was just petty. Its not new news that these guys don't particularly like each other, but they have both helped each other out on track in the past and respect that both can be unbeatable on their day.

I personally don't like team orders, but since they can't be properly policed they may as well be legal as they are now. In the case of Sunday I think both teams were actually just trying to preserve the cars and/or fuel, and in that instance I don't really have issue with it. But I would still much rather that the cars had both fuel and tires to actually race.

The US coverage showed both Horner and Brawn with their heads in their hands when the on track whining and action was taking place between team cars. It was priceless!

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I personally don't like team orders, but since they can't be properly policed they may as well be legal as they are now. !

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I think that team orders will continue in F1, as you say. They have been around since the days of Fangio, have bobbed up many times since, and I fully agree there is no sensible way to control it. When you have two really good drivers in a team, both capable of winning races, how can one driver agree to give away a win if it might cost him the championship at the end of the year? And we have Hamilton at Mercedes, Kimi at Lotus, Alonso at Ferrari who are all capable of winning races and scoring maximum points, it is really tempting for any driver to grab maximum points in any race, whatever it takes.

Does anyone think Red Bull will chastise Vettel for blatantly ignoring team orders? I'm not sure they will but I think they really need to, no driver is bigger than the team.. or at least shouldn't be.
Banning him for a race, as has been suggested, is not in the teams best interests. Telling Seb to let Mark past near the end of the next race to even things up again would probably be the best solution.... but if he chose to also ignore that they would have no other choice other than to sack him.

Tricky situation for RB?

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Originally Posted by Dave B

I hate team orders but it's a necessary part of the sport so long as there are two championships. If Vettel/Webber or Hamilton/Rosberg had crashed fighting each other today, they'd have lost invaluable points.

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I think there should only be a drivers championship but that would not improve the team order bit but make it worse with 2nd drivers playing only a rear gunner role and being a lot less considerate during overtaking.

Nobody apart from the teams and clear #1 drivers like team orders. However, when it's impossible to seperate team orders from a team sport, you really must question why people get angry about it. Just a waste of time.

If there were no team orders F1 would certainly be more boring.

The inter-team rivalry is one aspect which makes the sport truly fascinating. Prost v Senna is one of the all time great rivalries in the world of sports.

The win at all cost mentality is in some cases like an anthropological/psychological study - the length and depths drivers will sink low to get what they want. Alonso being a perfect example but also I remember someone (Peter Windsor?) recounted when Frank Williams was lying in hospital worse for wear after his car crippling car crash Nelson Piquet tried to convince Frank that he made him number one driver!

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Originally Posted by wedge

but also I remember someone (Peter Windsor?) recounted when Frank Williams was lying in hospital worse for wear after his car crippling car crash Nelson Piquet tried to convince Frank that he made him number one driver!

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Not as cheeky as Ron Dennis who in the aftermath of the accident arranged a meeting with Honda execs and asked them "ever seen a cripple win a world championship? Neither have I." It wasn't a coincidence Honda switched soon after.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Nobody apart from the teams and clear #1 drivers like team orders. However, when it's impossible to seperate team orders from a team sport, you really must question why people get angry about it. Just a waste of time.

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In addition we ought to remember that team orders are legal because its impossible to ban them. Even yesterday RBR didn't initially refer to team orders but to an anonymous code, Multi-21 which sounds like an engine mapping setting. Had Vettel stuck to the plan we could have guessed there were team orders in play but we wouldn't have known for certain.

Likewise when team orders were banned there were all sorts of shenanigans with odd pitstops to favour one teammate over the other or the infamous "Fernando is faster than you, do you understand?" rubbish.

If you want to be insanely purist then split strategies should also be banned when they are opposed by the drivers who may feel that they have been given the one thats less likely to succeed.

Its not pleasant to watch but team orders have always been part of F1, its just that sometimes its better hidden than at others. There really isn't that much point getting stressed over the issue.

I agree with most above.

I was thinking today at work and thought about this.

I wonder if teams are more strict on team orders now, because F1 has become more on edge now through cost cutting.

I mean now. As soon as a team has a position in the bag, they turn it all down quicker these days as Engines, Gear Boxes and Tyres are so delicate they dont want 1 second more stress than needed.

Maybe F1 with less restrictions is the answer.

Ban team orders and if they can't... Ban the constructors championship, who cares about that anyway... There's no driver who cares about the constructors championship, all they want is to be P1 in the drivers standings after all.

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Originally Posted by Zico

Does anyone think Red Bull will chastise Vettel for blatantly ignoring team orders? I'm not sure they will but I think they really need to, no driver is bigger than the team.. or at least shouldn't be.
Banning him for a race, as has been suggested, is not in the teams best interests. Telling Seb to let Mark past near the end of the next race to even things up again would probably be the best solution.... but if he chose to also ignore that they would have no other choice other than to sack him.

Tricky situation for RB?

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It will be interesting to see how RB handle this situation. I can say for sure that Seb is lucky I don't manage the team, as I wouldn't be easy on the young lad. ;) I'd even be tempted to see if the sponsors would allow his car to be painted pink for a race or two, since he turned into such a whining little girl. :)

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Originally Posted by heliocastroneves#3

Ban the constructors championship, who cares about that anyway... There's no driver who cares about the constructors championship, all they want is to be P1 in the drivers standings after all.

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What about the constructors themselves, don't they also deserve to get something from F1?
F1 would die.. or at best end up as a one make series if you had your way.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

It will be interesting to see how RB handle this situation. I can say for sure that Seb is lucky I don't manage the team, as I wouldn't be easy on the young lad. ;) I'd even be tempted to see if the sponsors would allow his car to be painted pink for a race or two, since he turned into such a whining little girl. :)

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You and I both.. ;)

"Watson said Horner's authority had been undermined by Vettel and called on the team boss to take action.
"If Christian Horner doesn't reassert his authority in the team - because he has been totally subjugated by Sebastian Vettel yesterday - then his position in the team is not exactly the role it is designed to be," said Watson.
"The only conclusion I can reach is that Vettel should be suspended for the next grand prix.
"You can't take the points away from him and give them to Mark Webber. That's now history and Sebastian has the benefit of those seven additional points.
"You can't really fine him - it is almost irrelevant to fine him - so the only purposeful way to bring him to book is to say 'you will stand out one race'."
Following the race on Sunday, Horner said Red Bull would discuss Vettel's move "behind closed doors".

cont...

BBC Sport - Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel should be suspended - John Watson

I agree that this has undermined Horner and that he needs to reassert his authority... but disagree that banning him for a race is the best and only solution.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

It will be interesting to see how RB handle this situation. I can say for sure that Seb is lucky I don't manage the team, as I wouldn't be easy on the young lad. ;) I'd even be tempted to see if the sponsors would allow his car to be painted pink for a race or two, since he turned into such a whining little girl. :)

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He likes changing his helmet design doesn't he, you could make him drive the next race in a helmet painted to look like a bell-end :D

Vettel / How would all you guys feel if Helmet Marko,states in the press that he feels Webber is not a good racer,will not win races ,and needs to up his game to keep his seat in the RB team.Then in Australia ,through no fault of his own ,due to an ECU problem his start,and race is messed up.Now a week later,after a good quali,and a good race he comes out from his last pit stop and is told to preserve his tyres and turn down his power as ,there are NOW team orders and Vettel has been told to hold station and not overtake. He then sees Vettel race past him and win the race,when it was confirmed to him TWICE,that Vettel had been told to not race him. He and I would think,are they telling me one thing and Vettel another,are they being truthful with me,or am I being shafted to make me look like a weak racer on purpose. In my eyes Vettel should have been told to hand back the lead to Webber,or brought in for another pit stop by his team,because he NEEDS to understand that he races for a TEAM,and the team have full control and no one person is above the team .I can fully understand Webbers frustration,and how he had enough control to not knock seven bells out of Vettel we will never know .
Rosberg/ I can fully understand Rosbergs frustration,at losing out on a podium,and Hamilton would rather win a race out on the race fair and square,rather than by team orders,and he made that quite clear in post race comments on the interviews.BUT Rosberg must realize that the Mercedes car he is now racing is NOW a race winning contender,due to Hamiltons ,feedback,and information and know how that Hamilton has brought with him from McLaren. When Schumacher was hired ,after all his years at Ferrari,the car really never improved, and I know that cars had moved on ,in the period between the Schu leaving Ferrari then joining Mercedes .Again Rosberg did stick to team orders ,and any team hiring a driver will know that Rosberg does as he is requested ,whereas the German does not.

If watching F1 comes down to watching the last ten laps sunday crusing and not full on racing it will wither away. May need let them fuel again to see what we all want racing to the max . Sort it Berine

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Originally Posted by wedge

If there were no team orders F1 would certainly be more boring.

The inter-team rivalry is one aspect which makes the sport truly fascinating. Prost v Senna is one of the all time great rivalries in the world of sports.

The win at all cost mentality is in some cases like an anthropological/psychological study - the length and depths drivers will sink low to get what they want. Alonso being a perfect example but also I remember someone (Peter Windsor?) recounted when Frank Williams was lying in hospital worse for wear after his car crippling car crash Nelson Piquet tried to convince Frank that he made him number one driver!

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I think your first sentence contradicts the remainder of your post.

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Originally Posted by driveace

Vettel / How would all you guys feel if Helmet Marko,states in the press that he feels Webber is not a good racer,will not win races ,and needs to up his game to keep his seat in the RB team.Then in Australia ,through no fault of his own ,due to an ECU problem his start,and race is messed up.Now a week later,after a good quali,and a good race he comes out from his last pit stop and is told to preserve his tyres and turn down his power as ,there are NOW team orders and Vettel has been told to hold station and not overtake. He then sees Vettel race past him and win the race,when it was confirmed to him TWICE,that Vettel had been told to not race him. He and I would think,are they telling me one thing and Vettel another,are they being truthful with me,or am I being shafted to make me look like a weak racer on purpose. In my eyes Vettel should have been told to hand back the lead to Webber,or brought in for another pit stop by his team,because he NEEDS to understand that he races for a TEAM,and the team have full control and no one person is above the team .I can fully understand Webbers frustration,and how he had enough control to not knock seven bells out of Vettel we will never know .
Rosberg/ I can fully understand Rosbergs frustration,at losing out on a podium,and Hamilton would rather win a race out on the race fair and square,rather than by team orders,and he made that quite clear in post race comments on the interviews.BUT Rosberg must realize that the Mercedes car he is now racing is NOW a race winning contender,due to Hamiltons ,feedback,and information and know how that Hamilton has brought with him from McLaren. When Schumacher was hired ,after all his years at Ferrari,the car really never improved, and I know that cars had moved on ,in the period between the Schu leaving Ferrari then joining Mercedes .Again Rosberg did stick to team orders ,and any team hiring a driver will know that Rosberg does as he is requested ,whereas the German does not.

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Did you get commas cheaply in a yard sale? Btw if you say 'the German' you should realize that Rosberg is one, too ;) You make some good points, but the rest of your rant is a wee bit painted in nationalism.
Hamilton has absolutely nothing to do with the upturn in the Mercedes fortunes. When he joined them at the start of the year the car was already done except for a bit of fine-tuning.
Mark looks like a weak racer, because he is one. He can steamroll the whole field on his day - expertly proven last year at Monaco and Silverstone - but he is way too inconsistent to challengefor titles. And he's the last to demand anything. Sulking now that Vettel has crapped in his salad makes him look like a hypocrit. We are talking about the man, who before last year's Brazil GP announced to the world that he'll do nothing to help his team mate and promptly acted accordingly on the track despite being told by his team to back off. Crying foul now makes him look like a complete tool.

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Originally Posted by driveace

the Mercedes car he is now racing is NOW a race winning contender,due to Hamiltons ,feedback,and information and know how that Hamilton has brought with him from McLaren.

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I reckon Hamilton brought at least 7 tenths with him, what? :p